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Discussion Starter #1
Seeing as the last thread seems to have gone here is another...

The following shows the madness of spending money on roads to relief congestion instead of trams...

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/s/166/166225_bumper_business_chokes_the_roads.html

Bumper business chokes the roads
Yakub Qureshi


JAMS: early morning traffic on the A57TAMESIDE has the biggest traffic growth in the country, figures reveal today.

A congestion blacklist published by the Department of Transport showed there were 36 per cent more cars and lorries on Tameside roads than in 1997 - the biggest increase in England.

Two other Greater Manchester areas, Oldham, in second place with 32.4 per cent, and Bury, 18 per cent, also recorded some of the sharpest rises in congestion. Tameside, Oldham and Bury were all above the national increase of 11 per cent.

Transport groups said the findings confirmed their worst fears about congestion in the region and blamed the delay of the Metrolink extension for increasing traffic jams.

Traffic bosses said they believed the bulk of the increase was due to the addition of the M60 Denton to Middleton extension, which had brought more traffic to area.

Coun Alan Whitehead, Tameside's executive member for technical services, said: "When there are good connections more people will want to use them. Regeneration has seen a lot firms moving into Tameside.

"People want to come to the great workshops of Manchester, and developments in places like Glossop, High Peak and Saddleworth means there will be additional traffic coming through Tameside."

Congestion

He believed the planned Metrolink extension, which was promised in the government's election manifesto, would help ease congestion.

Andrew Shaw, co-ordinator of Friends of the Earth Oldham, said: "There has definitely been an increase of traffic. The M60 has brought an associated increase in traffic throughout the borough and people are travelling more between their homes and work.

"The government is throwing a lot of money at the road network at the same time that it has reneged on its promise for the new Metrolink to Oldham and Tameside."

The Liberal Democrats, who requested the information, which dates from when Labour came into government, said motorists should be charged for driving into urban areas.

Tom Brake MP, the party's transport spokesman, claimed London-style congestion fees would cut traffic and fund better public transport.

He said: "John Prescott infamously remarked that if the government did not reduce road traffic it would have failed. These figures are the clearest indicator that it has failed."
 

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The M60 as it is now known didn't used to be a complete loop, the eastern side was the major bit of it missing.
 

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Used to be (anti clockwise) M62, M63, M66, and the link between Denton and Prestwich didn't exist. Basically, there was a huge chunk of the M66 totally missing.
 

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I thought for a long while that urban areas should be subject to a congestion chg, however im inclined to think that it would make little difference, no matter how good the public transport links are. I know plenty of people who could get the metro link to work but they dont. WHY? Because they cant be arsed. They love their cars and they love having their own space, so to hell with the environment and congestion and the rest. There are some mightily selfish and short sighted people on this planet and no matter how much you improved public transport most people would still choose to get in their cars. Every morning when i walk into work i see car after car with one person in, it drives me crazy. People believe it is their right to own and use a car now ( a bit like americans believe its their "right" to own a gun), whereas it should be considered a privalege.

I've worked in manchester centre for the last 5 years and have lived in a variety of places in that time, from as far out as Bramhall, to Chorlton and now in the city centre. I've used many different methods of public transport to get into the city, and have never found it to be a problem, despite the odd delay or cancellation. To say public transport needs fundamental improvement before it becomes a viable alternative is just a lame excuse for not wanting to give up your car.
 

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Bravo :applause: i agree totally.

Car driver's are so bloody selfish it's unbelievable,
They think they have this god given right to drive into the city centre delay free, get a parking spot in an instant, free of course,because why should they pay to park.
And when they dont get this they moan like ****.

They dont like going on the buses cos it takes longer,when it only takes longer because of selfish car drivers clogging all the bloody roads up.

And bloody school runs make me mad, big fat arsed mother's in 4x4 running there bloody kids to school when they could walk it in about 15 mins

I think though if Metrolink had more carriages and the extention goes ahead more people will get out of the cars , but until that happens selfish car driver's will be causing havoc on ours roads everyday until it does.
 

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Once the metrolink extensions are built (bus services will also be improved by then), I see no excuse not to levy a £2-3 (£5 peak times) congestion charge in the city centre which can help pay for improved transport links around the conurbation.

Those who absolutely must drive will also benefit from having less cars on the road.

Motorway tolls could do the same for nationwide inter-city rail links.
 

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Once the metrolink extensions are built? Fat chance.

Oh but you'll still get your congestion charging.

So rich public sector lovies have nice clear roads.

Jeez.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
My theory on things...

Sky News are making out that Brown is changing when the spending revue is done - putting it back to 2007.

They are saying that in that spending revue there will be a massive increase in transport spending, I reckon that we'll build the Rochdale and Ashton lines with the £520m, the airport line coming from congestion charging piolt scheme or the increased dfT budget.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
It does seem a bit on the expensive side.

The interesting bit (as discussed earlier today on the Liverpool forum) is Darling seems to be making allowances for inflation in the calculations here for the costs - he quotes 2002 proces being £10bn, but 2007 figures as being £15bn to £16bn.

This is different to the Metrolink situation where we are stuck on 2002 prices of £520m for a 2007 start as well, this is a touch fustrating.
 

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The interesting bit (as discussed earlier today on the Liverpool forum) is Darling seems to be making allowances for inflation in the calculations here for the costs - he quotes 2002 proces being £10bn, but 2007 figures as being £15bn to £16bn.

This is different to the Metrolink situation where we are stuck on 2002 prices of £520m for a 2007 start as well, this is a touch fustrating.
Your understated frustration speaks volumes there, Trammy. Yet more shame to be heaped upon Alisdair Darling's Department for Transport?

They've already been pilloried TWICE now by House of Commons Select Committee Reports over their utterly incompetent handling of various tram projects around the country and now this. Question should be asked in Parliament, Darling should be sacked and public transport given a similar status to health and education in the government's spending priorities.
 

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Health budgets are being cut in an underhand fashion. My local hospital trust is facing a £5m reduction and is having to make plans to lose hundreds of staff, including nurses. We've had stealth taxes, now we're getting stealth cuts.
 

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Farsight said:
Health budgets are being cut in an underhand fashion. My local hospital trust is facing a £5m reduction and is having to make plans to lose hundreds of staff, including nurses. We've had stealth taxes, now we're getting stealth cuts.
Farsight, none of the NHS trusts have had funding cuts so if I was you I'd start asking your NHS trust questions about why they're diverting money to another hospital/facility.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Indeed, the one in LA doesn't seem to have the same funding problems as it's UK namesake either.
 

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Trammy said:
Indeed, the one in LA doesn't seem to have the same funding problems as it's UK namesake either.
Yeah, Fund in Metrolink is alright but only problem with fuel because it will going be higher as gas price goes higher at same time. BART is one worse expensive transit with fare zone.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
LA - from memory, the electric comes off the National Electric grid for Merolink - and as the UK is still (for the time being) relatively ok with gas supplies in the North Sea, our electric costs have not risen in the same way as other parts of the world.

Must be remembered that the cost of the alternatives will also be rising (probably faster) than for the electrically powered trams - petrol and disel are now both above 90p / litre (about £4 / gallon - $7.5 / gallon), which is historically very high.

It wouldn't surprise me if Serco (Metrolink operators) have a set price for electric - that could have been agreed well before the rise in energy prices.

A couple of years ago we had petrol strikes, it became very hard to get fuel for cars, the passenger numbers on systems like Metrolink rocketed, however, after a while it was becoming difficult for the drivers to get to the depot, to driver the trams.
 
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