MIAMI | Soccer stadium

233441 Views 475 Replies 50 Participants Last post by CalleOchoGringo, Jul 26, 2018

pawnmaster

Discussion Starter · Apr 14, 2014

Do we have a thread to keep up with this?

Here is the latest ... Nothing new really just wonder if anyone got to see the front page article mentioned:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/04/14/4059873/royal-caribbean-leads-alliance.html

Save

Reactions: 1

1 - 20 of 476 Posts

QuantumX

· #2 · Apr 15, 2014 (Edited)

There has been talk about it on other threads, but I don't think there is a thread that is actually dedicated to it. I can consolidate all the talk about it into this thread if you find any more discussion on it.

Save

Reactions: 1

linolenum

· #3 · Apr 15, 2014

Being a soccer fan, I really think that having a MLS team in Miami is a very good idea. Miami has a lot of South American culture and soccer it's part of it. I live in europe and i know that many players are attracted by the US.

Now about the location, I like the idea of port Miami but it is clear that it will have an impact on the traffic...

Save

Reactions: 1

pawnmaster

Discussion Starter · #4 · Apr 15, 2014

QuantumX said:
There has been talk about it on other threads, but I don't think there is a thread that is actually dedicated to it. I can consolidate all the talk about it into this thread if you find any more discussion on it.

Sounds good

Save

Reactions: 1

Dale

· #5 · Apr 15, 2014

Astounding to me that Miami doesn't have an MLS team. It would also be the best venue for an F1 race, IMO.

Save

Reactions: 1

marcvader

· #6 · Apr 21, 2014

Two sides trade jabs in debate over Major League Soccer stadium at PortMiami

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/04/20/4070389/two-sides-trade-jabs-in-debate.html#storylink=cpy

Save

Reactions: 1

theEmbarcadero

· #7 · Apr 24, 2014

Dale said:
Astounding to me that Miami doesn't have an MLS team. It would also be the best venue for an F1 race, IMO.

This was the argument that baseball fans held though out the 1960s to the 1980s. It was assumed that baseball could not miss, with all the rabid baseball loving Cubans. This proved to be untrue for many, many reasons.

But one of the key factors is that so many northern transplants have their own teams already and root for them. I could see this happening to a Miami MLS franchise too.

Don't forget that the Miami Gatos/Toros/Strikers failed.....when there was a lot less competition for the sports dollar.....

Save

Reactions: 1

spellbound

· #8 · Apr 24, 2014

theEmbarcadero said:
This was the argument that baseball fans held though out the 1960s to the 1980s. It was assumed that baseball could not miss, with all the rabid baseball loving Cubans. This proved to be untrue for many, many reasons.

But one of the key factors is that so many northern transplants have their own teams already and root for them. I could see this happening to a Miami MLS franchise too.

Don't forget that the Miami Gatos/Toros/Strikers failed.....when there was a lot less competition for the sports dollar.....

Not surprisingly, we agree 100% on this.

The whole "soccer can't miss in Miami" argument is nothing new, as you know. It goes back at least 40 years. And it HAS missed...multiple times.

The one and ONLY time it worked at any level that resonated was a few, brief years when the Ft. Lauderdale Strikers were playing to near capacity (around 18,000) at old Lockhart Stadium off Commercial back in the late 70's when the NASL (especially the Cosmos) was relevant. Those were fun games for anyone that remembers it. And the Strikers were pretty good, more often than not.

Before that? No. After that? No. Remember the Fusion? We've already HAD a MLS team.

Here's the thing. Miami seems such an obvious choice for MLS with a built-in futbol mad crowd, but my experience tells me those folks hold their passion for THEIR teams, THEIR players...whether it's Brazil or Argentina, or a TEAM from Sao Paulo or Cartagena, or maybe just a specific player.

As far as that passion extending (and buying tickets) to see a team with "Miami" in their name? That remains in question. I'm not convinced it exists--not convinced that's where Miami's soccer heart really is.

Let's be honest here. We're not Seattle. 60,000 screaming maniacs are not going to show up and cheer for a Miami soccer team just because of hometown pride. (and, yes..I admit to being jealous of Seattle in that regard)

I ((think)) MLS can work in Miami but it is by no means a slam dunk. It's going to take a LOT of creative marketing and ultimately I'm not even convinced downtown is where it should even be.

See less See more

Save

Reactions: 2

UMdev

· #9 · Apr 24, 2014

spellbound said:
Not surprisingly, we agree 100% on this.

The whole "soccer can't miss in Miami" argument is nothing new, as you know. It goes back at least 40 years. And it HAS missed...multiple times.

The one and ONLY time it worked at any level that resonated was a few, brief years when the Ft. Lauderdale Strikers were playing to near capacity (around 18,000) at old Lockhart Stadium off Commercial back in the late 70's when the NASL (especially the Cosmos) was relevant. Those were fun games for anyone that remembers it. And the Strikers were pretty good, more often than not.

Before that? No. After that? No. Remember the Fusion? We've already HAD a MLS team.

Here's the thing. Miami seems such an obvious choice for MLS with a built-in futbol mad crowd, but my experience tells me those folks hold their passion for THEIR teams, THEIR players...whether it's Brazil or Argentina, or a TEAM from Sao Paulo or Cartagena, or maybe just a specific player.

As far as that passion extending (and buying tickets) to see a team with "Miami" in their name? That remains in question. I'm not convinced it exists--not convinced that's where Miami's soccer heart really is.

Let's be honest here. We're not Seattle. 60,000 screaming maniacs are not going to show up and cheer for a Miami soccer team just because of hometown pride. (and, yes..I admit to being jealous of Seattle in that regard)

I ((think)) MLS can work in Miami but it is by no means a slam dunk. It's going to take a LOT of creative marketing and ultimately I'm not even convinced downtown is where it should even be.

The problem I see with this reasoning is that you are comparing what is trying to be done with drastically different examples in the past.

The Miami fusion was based in Ft. Lauderdale. They were playing in Lockhart stadium of all places. Only the most die hard fan would actually drive out there.

And I think that is the issue. We don't need die hard Seattle fans. If we want soccer to thrive in a place like Miami we need to focus on the casual fans and making it an entertainment option.

For example I'm not a big baseball fan. I've been to maybe a handful of games when I get invited to a club room suite. However if you move that stadium downtown, I would go to a lot of games, which would lead me to caring more about the team.

Obviously people who love their home team aren't going to have to switch sides because Miami isn't going to be playing Brazil. When soccer is on all the restaurants in Brickell are showing the matches. It's a great time to go out and have drinks. People are dying for the soccer experience, but they're not going to drive all the way out to Ft. Lauderdale for it.

I've got season tickets to the Heat. Half the people there know nothing about basketball are and just there to be seen and enjoy in the entertainment. You put a downtown stadium with some bars and restaurants nearby and you'll get plenty of people who love soccer to show up. Then the second that team has any decent success every body in Miami who knows nothing about about soccer will be there. You'd get more people showing up than a team in Ft. Lauderdale playing for an MLS Cup.

See less See more

Save

Reactions: 2

spellbound

· #10 · Apr 24, 2014

^^All valid points, but I must add a few things.

First, I would hesitate to be so dismissive of Ft. Lauderdale and/or Broward itself as a sports market, particularly with soccer. The fact is, the ONLY time soccer worked well in South Florida was years ago with the Strikers playing in Lockhart. The team was actually the old 'Miami Toros' who had been playing in the OB to miniscule crowds and then rebranded themselves in Lauderdale and did much, much better at the gate for a few years.

It's not as if the entire soccer crowd lives in Dade and would be "making the long trip" up there. The potential fanbase is already there---it's been shown in the past. For that matter, fully 75% of the Dolphins season-ticket base lives north of County Line Road. So when you're talking about the sports market in South Florida you really can't just focus on one city--Miami--as the focal point of that market because it really isn't, even if it is the biggest and most notable city in that market.

Also keep in mind that MLS itself has very purposefully placed many of their franchises in a suburban location to market directly to the middle-class, 'soccer mom' demographic. It's been a smart template, too, as most of those teams have done quite well at the gate. In terms of South Florida, that crowd obviously isn't downtown to any great degree so to draw some of them THEY would be the ones needing to "make the long drive."

Now, fully understood MLS is looking to do something different with a Miami team. They want it downtown, and if they can't get a facility there it's a bit iffy if a franchise will even be awarded.

That's fine, and I've never, ever said it's unworkable...only that I have real concerns whether a potential fanbase that seems to reserve their passion for their own teams, players, etc. would really transfer that support into strong ticket sales for a team simply because it says "Miami" on the jerseys. Based on the history, it's a legitimate question.

But do I WANT it to work? Of course! Miami/South Florida is too big a market not to have a MLS franchise. I'd love to see a team thrive there. :cheers:

See less See more

Save

Reactions: 4

spellbound

· #11 · Apr 24, 2014

Oh, and I know that "see and be seen" crowd you are talking about at Heat games. My Dad had tickets for years.

To be honest, I wish they could all hang out in their own special section where they could all stare at their phones and compare their Prada accessories and let REAL fans who would make some more noise take their place. :lol:

Save

Reactions: 2

ftlauddude

· #12 · Apr 24, 2014

UMdev said:
The problem I see with this reasoning is that you are comparing what is trying to be done with drastically different examples in the past.

The Miami fusion was based in Ft. Lauderdale. They were playing in Lockhart stadium of all places. Only the most die hard fan would actually drive out there.

And I think that is the issue. We don't need die hard Seattle fans. If we want soccer to thrive in a place like Miami we need to focus on the casual fans and making it an entertainment option.

For example I'm not a big baseball fan. I've been to maybe a handful of games when I get invited to a club room suite. However if you move that stadium downtown, I would go to a lot of games, which would lead me to caring more about the team.

Obviously people who love their home team aren't going to have to switch sides because Miami isn't going to be playing Brazil. When soccer is on all the restaurants in Brickell are showing the matches. It's a great time to go out and have drinks. People are dying for the soccer experience, but they're not going to drive all the way out to Ft. Lauderdale for it.

I've got season tickets to the Heat. Half the people there know nothing about basketball are and just there to be seen and enjoy in the entertainment. You put a downtown stadium with some bars and restaurants nearby and you'll get plenty of people who love soccer to show up. Then the second that team has any decent success every body in Miami who knows nothing about about soccer will be there. You'd get more people showing up than a team in Ft. Lauderdale playing for an MLS Cup.

Obviously you haven't realized where the "sudacas" live. Miami-Dade Hispanic population is roughly 70% Cuban (especially close to Downtown Miami). You'd assume that the Marlins Stadium is packed every game since baseball is the favorite; but is it? Not even close. Now, Broward is very diverse with regards to Hispanics with a majority from soccer-loving countries. So where do you think the soccer fans live? That's why the Strikers have survived all these years. You're analyzing this thing as you see it since you probably live in South Dade; however, one thing is certain and as you mentioned, people in Miami are not really hard core fans, they just go to games to be seen

spellbound said:
^^All valid points, but I must add a few things.

First, I would hesitate to be so dismissive of Ft. Lauderdale and/or Broward itself as a sports market, particularly with soccer. The fact is, the ONLY time soccer worked well in South Florida was years ago with the Strikers playing in Lockhart. The team was actually the old 'Miami Toros' who had been playing in the OB to miniscule crowds and then rebranded themselves in Lauderdale and did much, much better at the gate for a few years.

It's not as if the entire soccer crowd lives in Dade and would be "making the long trip" up there. The potential fanbase is already there---it's been shown in the past. For that matter, fully 75% of the Dolphins season-ticket base lives north of County Line Road. So when you're talking about the sports market in South Florida you really can't just focus on one city--Miami--as the focal point of that market because it really isn't, even if it is the biggest and most notable city in that market.

Also keep in mind that MLS itself has very purposefully placed many of their franchises in a suburban location to market directly to the middle-class, 'soccer mom' demographic. It's been a smart template, too, as most of those teams have done quite well at the gate. In terms of South Florida, that crowd obviously isn't downtown to any great degree so to draw some of them THEY would be the ones needing to "make the long drive."

Now, fully understood MLS is looking to do something different with a Miami team. They want it downtown, and if they can't get a facility there it's a bit iffy if a franchise will even be awarded.

That's fine, and I've never, ever said it's unworkable...only that I have real concerns whether a potential fanbase that seems to reserve their passion for their own teams, players, etc. would really transfer that support into strong ticket sales for a team simply because it says "Miami" on the jerseys. Based on the history, it's a legitimate question.

But do I WANT it to work? Of course! Miami/South Florida is too big a market not to have a MLS franchise. I'd love to see a team thrive there. :cheers:

10000% agreed. I wish we could have more peeps like you here. All we have is a big group of country-centric folks who might as well have diarrhea before stepping a foot in another So FL county.

Save

Reactions: 1

spellbound

· #13 · Apr 24, 2014

Definitely don't want to get into any "county versus county" thing because the truth about South Florida is that it's a THREE county metropolis and they are all wholly integrated and completely dependent on each other economically. What is good for Broward is good for Miami...what is good for Miami is good for West Palm...you get the picture.

That said, I would just add that Broward is a wildly diverse county, both ethnically and economically. In fact, it's my belief (and the demographics back it up) that it has become the MOST diverse part of South Florida, despite the enduring (and completely false) belief that it is still some 'white bread' bastion. And, by the way, 'white bread' IS a part of overall diversity, too, is it not?

Suffice it to say there are PLENTY of futbol-mad fanatics living in Venezuela (I mean Weston) and Brazil (I mean Pompano Beach).

Can't we all just get along? :cheers:

Save

Reactions: 2

UMdev

· #14 · Apr 24, 2014 (Edited)

ftlauddude said:
Obviously you haven't realized where the "sudacas" live. Miami-Dade Hispanic population is roughly 70% Cuban (especially close to Downtown Miami). You'd assume that the Marlins Stadium is packed every game since baseball is the favorite; but is it? Not even close. Now, Broward is very diverse with regards to Hispanics with a majority from soccer-loving countries. So where do you think the soccer fans live? That's why the Strikers have survived all these years. You're analyzing this thing as you see it since you probably live in South Dade; however, one thing is certain and as you mentioned, people in Miami are not really hard core fans, they just go to games to be seen

You missed my points entirely. I don't know how you assume I live in South Dade when it's pretty obvious I live in Brickell.

The Marlins games aren't packed because the stadium isn't in a convenient location downtown. If you think Little Havana is downtown then you really don't understand the area. Come to downtown/Brickell and whenever soccer matches are on you will see that all the restaurants are packed while showing the matches.

You can hate all you want on Miami fans not being hardcore but the reality is with so much do do here people aren't in a rush to go out support a sports team when its not great entertainment. Who cares if half the people are there just to have a good time and don't understand basketball??? That's something someone else is a worse place complains about because they have a chip on their shoulder.

People like to be out and about downtown and are looking for reason to do so. No one is looking for a reason to go to Little Havana.

So I'll repeat but try and try to be a bit more clear. In order to have a good soccer franchise because it isn't as popular you need to have both die hard fans AS WELL AS casual fans. Die hard fans will go pretty much anywhere within reason, casual fans will primarily go to exciting places. So if you stadium is in Ft. Lauderdale or Little Havana sure the die hards will go but the casuals wont. However put it downtown and both groups will go.

See less See more

Save

Reactions: 2

spellbound

· #15 · Apr 24, 2014

Regarding the Marlins--much as I never thought the old OB site was a good location (it isn't) I just can't go along with the notion that their attendance woes would be magically erased if their ballpark was 1.5 miles east of there. Maybe marginally better, but it wouldn't be a panacea.

Their attendance issues have myriad reasons behind it. It's far from just the location of the ballpark.

Save

Reactions: 3

UMdev

· #16 · Apr 24, 2014

spellbound said:
^^All valid points, but I must add a few things.

First, I would hesitate to be so dismissive of Ft. Lauderdale and/or Broward itself as a sports market, particularly with soccer. The fact is, the ONLY time soccer worked well in South Florida was years ago with the Strikers playing in Lockhart. The team was actually the old 'Miami Toros' who had been playing in the OB to miniscule crowds and then rebranded themselves in Lauderdale and did much, much better at the gate for a few years.

It's not as if the entire soccer crowd lives in Dade and would be "making the long trip" up there. The potential fanbase is already there---it's been shown in the past. For that matter, fully 75% of the Dolphins season-ticket base lives north of County Line Road. So when you're talking about the sports market in South Florida you really can't just focus on one city--Miami--as the focal point of that market because it really isn't, even if it is the biggest and most notable city in that market.

Also keep in mind that MLS itself has very purposefully placed many of their franchises in a suburban location to market directly to the middle-class, 'soccer mom' demographic. It's been a smart template, too, as most of those teams have done quite well at the gate. In terms of South Florida, that crowd obviously isn't downtown to any great degree so to draw some of them THEY would be the ones needing to "make the long drive."

Now, fully understood MLS is looking to do something different with a Miami team. They want it downtown, and if they can't get a facility there it's a bit iffy if a franchise will even be awarded.

That's fine, and I've never, ever said it's unworkable...only that I have real concerns whether a potential fanbase that seems to reserve their passion for their own teams, players, etc. would really transfer that support into strong ticket sales for a team simply because it says "Miami" on the jerseys. Based on the history, it's a legitimate question.

But do I WANT it to work? Of course! Miami/South Florida is too big a market not to have a MLS franchise. I'd love to see a team thrive there. :cheers:

I disagree with a few points here. As I said I'm a Heat season ticket holder. I ride the metromover to the games. The vast majority of the people coming to Heat games filling up the 300 and 400 sections are those middle class people. The metromover is packed with these people before and after the game. That makes it easier for everyone to get there. You move it little Havana it simply isn't going to be easy to get to because most people don't want to be stuck in gridlock traffic.

Soccer stadiums like basketball hold around 20k people. The greater downtown population is over 75k people with a daytime population of over 200k people. It's much easier to fill a stadium downtown (especially on the weekday) than any other place.

The cities that have suburban soccer stadiums are already suburban cities in nature. And I'd also add that the nation as a whole is in the midst of a demographic shift where a large percentage of people are moving back to more urban locations. The soccer moms of the future are going to be in much more urban locations than the soccer moms of the last decades.

See less See more

Save

Reactions: 1

UMdev

· #17 · Apr 24, 2014

spellbound said:
Regarding the Marlins--much as I never thought the old OB site was a good location (it isn't) I just can't go along with the notion that their attendance woes would be magically erased if their ballpark was 1.5 miles east of there. Maybe marginally better, but it wouldn't be a panacea.

Their attendance issues have myriad reasons behind it. It's far from just the location of the ballpark.

I'm not saying it's the only problem. However it would greatly increase attendance. A lot of the games are on the weekdays, and there is basically nothing to do around the stadium. So if you want to go to a game it has to be because you really want to see them play. It's not like you can just go to hang out.

Now move the stadium downtown near AA arena. You've got a Thursday game around 7 pm. On Thursdays downtown is jumping. For a fraction of the price of a Heat ticket you can come out watch a game and then go out and have drinks afterwards. Heck the Clevelander that they have inside the current stadium would be packed during every game.

Then the combination of the extra Marlins games would be a boon for all the local restaurants in the area. You'd get thousands of people showing up who have no real interest in baseball but are looking for a fun time regardless of whether the Marlins are good or bad.

Save

Reactions: 1

ftlauddude

· #18 · Apr 24, 2014

UMdev said:
You missed my points entirely. I don't know how you assume I live in South Dade when it's pretty obvious I live in Brickell.

The Marlins games aren't packed because the stadium isn't in a convenient location downtown. If you think Little Havana is downtown then you really don't understand the area. Come to downtown/Brickell and whenever soccer matches are on you will see that all the restaurants are packed while showing the matches.

You can hate all you want on Miami fans not being hardcore but the reality is with so much do do here people aren't in a rush to go out support a sports team when its not great entertainment. Who cares if half the people are there just to have a good time and don't understand basketball??? That's something someone else is a worse place complains about because they have a chip on their shoulder.

People like to be out and about downtown and are looking for reason to do so. No one is looking for a reason to go to Little Havana.

So I'll repeat but try and try to be a bit more clear. In order to have a good soccer franchise because it isn't as popular you need to have both die hard fans AS WELL AS casual fans. Die hard fans will go pretty much anywhere within reason, casual fans will primarily go to exciting places. So if you stadium is in Ft. Lauderdale or Little Havana sure the die hards will go but the casuals wont. However put it downtown and both groups will go.

First of all, technically you do live in South Dade; isn't Brickell in the SW/SE streets?

Also, don't talk to me like if I've never set a foot in the area. I work in the Gables, and often do happy hours in Brickell, and ride my train back home to Downtown Fort Lauderdale. So save your speech for those who are afraid to cross county borders.

Now that we have that clear, the idea (maybe you didnt know), was to redevelop the area around Marlin stadium. It was supposed to be the catalyst to investment here, there, and everywhere. Unfortunately, this didn't happen for many reason including the recession. Now, that's not the main reason why the Marlins Stadium is pretty much empty. Despite the fact that it does have a big baseball market for the reason I stated above in my previous response, their lousy performance, and all the scandals regarding its construction have made going to a game "blah". On top of that, a big chunk of our population comes from the northeast, where one is a fan the second one's out of the womb till one dies. Even if one has been living here for many many many years, the northeast teams are favored. With that in mind, it's kinda hard to have a fan base here. The Heat is a different story, and will be till they start performing badly, and other teams will be liked again. So, when you mention places are packed watching soccer games; may I ask what teams are playing? Any American team by any chance? or is it Real Madrid against Barça??? You and I know the answer.

What I am trying to say is that the majority of a possible soccer base doesn't live in the vicinity of Downtown; therefore, going to a game is going to be a hassle just as it is to go to a Marlins Game, no matter how many LivingSocial or Groupon deals are offered. Or do you think that Brickell alone could get all the seats of a stadium? But hey, I think Beckham has more problems than that; 'cause that fight with the port it's just starting....

See less See more

Save

Reactions: 1

spellbound

· #19 · Apr 24, 2014

UMdev said:
The cities that have suburban soccer stadiums are already suburban cities in nature.

I'm not so sure about that part. Every big city is a mix of urban and suburban and I don't find Miami to be "more" urban than others at all. It's a pretty spread out, linear metro.

I would use the Union here in Philly as an example. Philadelphia is intensely urban and dense at its core...and it is unquestionably the focal point (by far) of the greater metro area...but MLS didn't follow the template of the other local teams by placing the franchise directly in the city but instead put it in Chester, which actually IS an urbanized area (and quite depressed in many parts) but it's also very close to that suburban, families with kids demographic and a LOT of disposable income. And it's worked well---their attendance is great.

There probably isn't any 'one size fits all' formula to it. Marketed correctly and with a competitive team, I think a MLS franchise could (and would) have the same odds of success whether it was in downtown Miami or somewhere up in Broward. It's just a matter of who you are targeting as your likely customer base and enticing them to come out.

Hey, let's just hope there IS a franchise to talk about. The port venue is facing a ton of powerful opposition and I don't even know if there's a viable 'Plan B' in place. :cheers:

See less See more

Save

Reactions: 1

spellbound

· #20 · Apr 24, 2014

^^By the way, definitely agreed about the shift back into the cities. True here...true down there...true in countless other cities across the country.

It's great to see. Now if we could just re-prioritize our shoddy public transit in this country!

Save

Reactions: 1

1 - 20 of 476 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.

Top Contributors this Month