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This project is indeed necessary as the present penn station one of the worst architectural tragedies in new york history. new york is a world class city so it deserves a world class train station. the present plans are terrible. msg should not overshadow the new station. in the picture below i offer an alternative. a new office building could be build on the site of the present msg(blue). The entire farely post office should be devoted to the new train station(green). a new msg should be built over the exposed rail lines and parking lots between 9th and 10th avenue(red). This location would give msg access to the new residential and commercial developments at the west side rail yards(purple). further heightening the appeal of location(red).



here is a closer look at my proposed site for a new msg
 

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Plans slowly moving forward for new Penn Station in NYC
19 November 2007

NEW YORK (AP) - Picture Penn Station with a sloping, glass-paneled roof, natural sunlight pouring in and thousands of passengers passing through a huge, majestic concourse just like Grand Central Terminal.

That was 1963, and that Penn Station is gone. The Beaux-Arts landmark was demolished and replaced by the Madison Square Garden sports arena and a dark, underground warren of passages and platforms that make up the nation's busiest train station.

Maura Moynihan, daughter of the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, calls it "the pit."

"It is an offense ... not just to transportation, but to good taste generally," she said.

After more than a decade of false starts, a $14 billion plan is moving forward to rebuild the station -- which would be named after Moynihan, a longtime fundraising advocate for a new hub -- and the dingy neighborhood surrounding it.

It hinges on Madison Square Garden agreeing to sell its arena on the spot where the original station stood, and move into an annex in a landmark post office building across the street.

That building, the James A. Farley Post Office, would also house a grand atrium with glass ceilings for more than 550,000 passengers who pass through the station each day -- more people than use all three New York City-area airports put together. More than 5 million square feet of commercial and retail space would be built around it, in a new city business district similar to one that enlivened the area around Grand Central decades earlier.

"That district is the poor stepcousin of Midtown," said Vishaan Chakrabarti, president of the Moynihan Station Venture, the project's developers. "It's really the last area that really hasn't been revitalized."

The venture includes Related Cos. and Vornado Realty Trust; Vornado owns more than 6 million square feet of commercial space in the neighborhood, as well as a hotel just outside the district that is being pursued as a possible new headquarters for Merrill Lynch. Just west of the train station, billions of dollars in new development is planned along the Hudson River waterfront.

Redeveloping the station and the area around it has been talked about for over a decade, and designs of the main concourse have been revised for the past eight years. The state Empire State Development Corp., under the administration of former Gov. George Pataki, last year failed to win approval of the three-member Public Authorities Control Board to go forward. The board said at the time that the plan needed to be bigger, addressing the needs of the entire train station -- home to Amtrak, New Jersey Transit, Long Island Rail Road trains and half a dozen subway lines.

The agency presented a new version to the public last month, proposing rebuilding the entire station for about $2 billion, moving the Garden to the post office and creating the new business district to spur high-end commercial development.

Negotiations for virtually every aspect of the project are still under way. The Postal Service has sold most of the building to the Empire State Development Corp., although it will still keep a historic, 24-hour lobby with Tiffany's furniture open for business. The developers and the agency are discussing funding for the station; public funding from federal, state and city sources could amount to less than $1 billion, said the agency's downstate chairman, Patrick Foye.

It also needs approval of Amtrak, which owns the station. Spokesman Clifford Cole said Amtrak supports the project but wants assurances that a new station will make more space available for riders, such as waiting areas and better stores and restaurants.

Mostly, it needs the Garden, whose plans have already riled preservationists worried that moving a sports arena into a landmark building would threaten a piece of history in the same way the old Penn Station was destroyed in 1963.

"We don't want history to repeat itself here," said Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy. "There is no need for the Garden to wreck Farley."

The post office is considered a crown jewel of New York City architecture, with its imposing Corinthian columns and gigantic staircase.

Breen and other preservationists deride reports that owners of the Garden plan to build a glass wall facing the concourse, saying it would overwhelm the train station. They worry that billboards advertising rock concerts and basketball games would be draped over the columns outside the building.

Said Foye: "We are very focused on the preservation issues at Farley ... We have not agreed to a glass wall." He also said billboards would not obstruct the columns and facade on the building's Eighth Avenue exterior.

Garden officials declined comment on their needs for the arena, beyond an earlier statement that they are "continuing to explore all opportunities" in the neighborhood, including moving the Garden.

If the arena does not agree to move, it plans to renovate the existing arena, blocking redevelopment of the train station under the arena.

"I don't want to have to be the person to have to explain to 600,000 passengers ... that they didn't get a new Penn Station because someone objected to a glass wall," said Chakrabarti.

And Maura Moynihan, who belongs to a civic group promoting the project, said her father would approve, despite the many arguments over the design.

"This is a chance that will never come again," she said. "We can't ask for perfection from any project at this late date. We have to move quickly."
 

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Ed.v.cas.baeZ
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i hate penn station...its so ugly and its crazy that i have to go there every two weeks when i get home from Stony Brook Uni....

It would've been so much better if they kept it like the grand central Station in the other side of manhattan
 

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I find the new stationhouse to be overrated. Also, the General Post Office just got its rennovation on the 8th Ave side finished, so I don't know why they want to ruin that building. I will not argue that building MSG over the original stationhouse was the wrong move, and that it should have been over the Hudson Yds instead, but we cannot change the past. Since most people entering it either via the subway, LIRR, NJ Transit, or even Amtrak will be underground, many of the riders will not even the see the new stationhouse unless they are going out from there. BTW, Daniel Patrick Moynihan does have his name on a building and that is at the NYS Supreme Courthouse over at Foley Sq, and I know this b/c I saw his portrait when I entered inside it for jurry duty and his name is on the entrance at Foley Sq.
 

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I really can't stand how everyone wants only Penn Station to be utilised. In London and Paris, the multiple-terminus method is much more effective. You'd think with the multitude of lines operating into New York City, there should be one for Amtrak, LIRR, MNRR, NJT, PATH (well two termini because of WTC and 33 Street), and Downtown. An orbital line connecting them would be useful.
 

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I really can't stand how everyone wants only Penn Station to be utilised. In London and Paris, the multiple-terminus method is much more effective. You'd think with the multitude of lines operating into New York City, there should be one for Amtrak, LIRR, MNRR, NJT, PATH (well two termini because of WTC and 33 Street), and Downtown. An orbital line connecting them would be useful.
The reason this is not like this in New York is pretty simple. When these original railroads were built some of the railways did not have the money to build a tunnel and buy land for a terminus in Manhattan. Only two were built on Manhattan (Penn Station and Grand Central), while one was built on the New Jersey side of the Hudson and another is in Queens.
 

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Bark twice if in Milwauke
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a breaking news! alert from the Friends of Moynihan Station.

Port Authority to manage the Moynihan Station project with Chris Ward as its director

The New York Observer reports that Governor Paterson is "fed up with the delays" at Moynihan Station and wants to put the project back on track by making the Port Authority the lead agency on the project, instead of the Empire State Development Corporation. In addition, the Governor is expected to announce this afternoon that Chris Ward, managing director of the General Contractors Association and a co-chair of the Friends of Moynihan Station, will be appointed Port Authority Director.

Overall this is good news for Moynihan Station. A move to the Port Authority, especially with Ward at its head, will infuse the project with new leadership and funding. (An ESDC Chair to replace Pat Foye, who resigned last month, still has not been announced.) There is legitimate concern, however, that the Port in the past has sometimes operated too secretively; the Friends will work with the agency and make sure it is held accountable.


Juliette D. Michaelson
Senior Planner, Regional Plan Association
212 253 2727 x312, [email protected]
 

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First we get retro ballparks (Camden Yards and its successors) and now we have retro train stations. I saw the old Penn Station as a kid on a class trip to NYC, and still remember how awesome it was. NYC was bigger than life to an 11 year old, and arrving at that station just reinforced that thought. It should have never been torn down.
 

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a breaking news! alert from the Friends of Moynihan Station.

Port Authority to manage the Moynihan Station project with Chris Ward as its director

The New York Observer reports that Governor Paterson is "fed up with the delays" at Moynihan Station and wants to put the project back on track by making the Port Authority the lead agency on the project, instead of the Empire State Development Corporation. In addition, the Governor is expected to announce this afternoon that Chris Ward, managing director of the General Contractors Association and a co-chair of the Friends of Moynihan Station, will be appointed Port Authority Director.

Overall this is good news for Moynihan Station. A move to the Port Authority, especially with Ward at its head, will infuse the project with new leadership and funding. (An ESDC Chair to replace Pat Foye, who resigned last month, still has not been announced.) There is legitimate concern, however, that the Port in the past has sometimes operated too secretively; the Friends will work with the agency and make sure it is held accountable.


Juliette D. Michaelson
Senior Planner, Regional Plan Association
212 253 2727 x312, [email protected]
Pardon me for saying this, but Chris Ward is a major bureaucrat and hardly a competent man for this job. just look at his really ugly and shameful role in the WTC negotiations. They cannot agree on the WTC development which is more well known then Penn station and all he does is stalling anything he can.
 

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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
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The Battle Of Madison Square Garden

This week, Madison Square Garden's permit to operate an arena came up for renewal. Community Board 5 which has tired of efforts by MSG to remain at their critical site directly above the woeful 1967 Pennsylvania Station replacement, is signalling their disdain for the arena and want the property back so Penn Station can grow. The war is heating up on all sides:




Madison Square Garden by Rheingold_Room, on Flickr

Fresh off $800+ million in redevelopment, MSG has little appetite for a move. Trouble is, they overlooked that little thing called a Temporary Operating Permit!
 

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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
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What began as an application for massive LED signage outside MSG has now morphed into an existential battle for the arena itself!




Smackdown At MSG: Community Board 5 Wants Penn Station Back



Madison Square Garden’s special permit to operate as an arena expired in January, and a move by the arena to secure a long-term renewal has evoked mixed reactions in the community, DNAinfo reported.

Fifty years ago, the City Planning Commission issued MSG a special permit which allows it to seat 2,500 people, according to a planning document viewed by DNAinfo. But since Jan. 24, the arena has been relying on a Temporary Certificate of Occupancy, which is set to run out in April.

In an effort to secure a permanent permit, MSG appeared before Community Board 5′s land use committee last week, but the committee said that the arena has no business sitting atop Penn Station, which slows down improvements to the city’s most important train station. They added that it would consider a 10-year lease which would give the community a chance to weigh in again in the future.

“The 10-year renewal is an attempt to create a planning period to figure out another location for the Garden,” Raju Mann, acting chairman of CB5′s land use committee, told DNAinfo. “The reason we would like MSG to relocate is because the Garden sits atop Penn Station, which is North America’s most important train station, but is unfortunately woefully over capacity.”

MSG is currently going through the city’s ULURP process to renew its special permit, having also recently sought permission to waive existing rules and install four 77-foot LED display panels on the stadium’s exterior, in a fashion akin to Times Square.
 

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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
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Should Madison Square Garden's Permit Be Renewed?


http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmac2011uk/

Thursday, February 14, 2013, by Sara Polsky

New York Times archicritic Michael Kimmelman is a known non-fan of Madison Square Garden, and he takes aim at the arena—"a daily blight" for Penn Station commuters—again on the occasion of its permit renewal application. The application goes before Community Board 5 tonight, and after recommendations from the City Planning Commission and the borough president, the City Council will make a decision. The Garden would like the permit, most recently valid for 50 years, to be good forever, and Kimmelman thinks the Council should give that request a resounding no. Among his reasons why:

1) The proposed 17,300-square-foot screens on four sides of the arena "could only further degrade the neighborhood."

2) Amtrak, Long Island Rail Road, and New Jersey Transit are working on their own area improvement plans, but the Garden must take part in order "heal one of the most painful wounds the city has ever inflicted on itself," and the Garden has had no apparent interest in being involved.

3) And if the impact on the neighborhood doesn't matter to the City Council, maybe shame will. The Garden has, Kimmelman argues, been "made to look even worse by the arrival of the spanking new and striking Barclays Center in Brooklyn."
 

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If they have to move after that massive renovation that would be really strange. I'm sure they'll renew the permit, they can't cancel all of the events they have planned. The 3 point argument against it sounds really weak.
 

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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
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If they have to move after that massive renovation that would be really strange. I'm sure they'll renew the permit, they can't cancel all of the events they have planned. The 3 point argument against it sounds really weak.
It seems crazy, but it's like a dam burst and 50 years of pent up rage towards MSG and the loss of the old Pennsylvania Station is seriously threatening the future of the arena. The permit is expired and it looks like the only way it's going to be renewed is after MSG develops a plan to vacate the site and rebuild elsewhere. If this happens, the James A. Farley Building could be back in play as a massive development site (with the 1930s building serving as the base). And the Moynihan station will disappear for good while an entirely new Penn Station gets worked out. Could be very interesting times! :cheers:
 
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