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Highway construction, the streetcar, concerns about crime rates, and public housing projects all have racial subtext and have been used as coded language for decades. Let me guess, you also have concerns about MPS and think we should privatize that and do vouchers instead?
Only if you make them have a racial subtext. Black residents also rely heavily on the highways (as does everyone else), have little access to the streetcar (like everyone else), and don't all live in public housing. Locating your new world class museum next to a housing project, busy off-ramp, dangerous intersection, and electrical substation is bizarre and ought to be commented on.
 

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If you think Old World Third St. isn't touristy I'm going to guess you've never actually been to Germany. I don't like Mader's because it's not really authentic (even if it was 50+ years ago) and there are far better local options for that type of food.

Simply incredible, you have almost zero self awareness here.
What is touristy about it? There are no cheap souvenir stores rather shops selling quality goods for visitors and resident alike. The same is true of the bars and most restaurants. Maders is touristy but it's also a landmark and the most iconic restaurant in the city. It's like someone from New Orleans complaining about Cafe du Monde or Pat O'Briens. They live their gimmick down there, why can't we?
 

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JFC, some of you need another f*cking hobby if the renaming of 6 blocks of a street to match what the majority of that street is called is something that pisses you off...

In what way does "Old World 3rd" scream "German history of Milwaukee"?! It's the actual history, the architecture and the businesses themselves that give off that flare. Why weren't you all upset when 4th Street became Vel Phillips? Because it wasn't "Old World 4th Street"? This is actually funny it's so ridiculous.
What else do you want to talk about, new buildings at the Port and a handful of new apartments being added to the Plankinton Arcade?

I come here every few months to create a multi-page discussion in the development doldrums and then the entire conversation is nuked, as if it never existed. Maybe Old World Third St. means more to be because I haven't been to a bar in an entire year and the "I Had a Dream" speech doesn't exactly inspire getting shit-faced when this is all over.
 

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Keep yapping. But save your ire for yourself, not me bro. You've earned every rebuke here from me and from others. Your takes have always been bad, if not flat out wrong. They've just continued to get worse. You clearly don't spend any time in communities of color, so maybe listen when people tell you how you and your opinions are received. Would it help if I showed up to your house with a diverse group of millennials and had them weigh in real time? Would that get you to wake up? Or would you just deflect?

I argue with you because you clearly don't understand what makes a city successful, and cling to outdated or counter-productive notions of what Milwaukee is or should be. You were opposed to the street car. Are opposed to a new Museum even as it risks losing its certification. Opposed to the Bucks arena even as we risked losing the team. Are opposed to an expanded Convention Center. Opposed to an increased marginal beverage tax. Literally opposed to anything that costs money but either has had a huge benefit or eventually will. This attitude is not only cheap, it's stupid. The great cities all invest in themselves. So glad an increasing number of Milwaukeeans don't think like you. Your way of thinking hopefully dies out with the Boomers.
 

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Keep yapping. But save your ire for yourself, not me bro. You've earned every rebuke here from me and from others. Your takes have always been bad, if not flat out wrong. They've just continued to get worse. You clearly don't spend any time in communities of color, so maybe listen when people tell you how you and your opinions are received. Would it help if I showed up to your house with a diverse group of millennials and had them weigh in real time? Would that get you to wake up? Or would you just deflect?

I argue with you because you clearly don't understand what makes a city successful, and cling to outdated or counter-productive notions of what Milwaukee is or should be. You were opposed to the street car. Are opposed to a new Museum even as it risks losing its certification. Opposed to the Bucks arena even as we risked losing the team. Are opposed to an expanded Convention Center. Opposed to an increased marginal beverage tax. Literally opposed to anything that costs money but either has had a huge benefit or eventually will. This attitude is not only cheap, it's stupid. The great cities all invest in themselves. So glad an increasing number of Milwaukeeans don't think like you. Your way of thinking hopefully dies out with the Boomers.
We had this conversation before, my friend. I told you that I was one of the number one proponents of the new arena. I even donated money to the Save Our Bucks billboard 8 years ago. I am opposed to more nickle and dime taxes, think the Convention Center expansion is pointless and that the streetcar is a waste of money---but I'm not vehemently opposed to them. I am a life-long supporter of the museum, I just think their current plans are insane and the loss of the current exhibit space will be sad.

I'm not sure why you take things so personally or combative. Why can't we ever have a productive conversation, do you all really want an echo chamber and single ideology dominating every issue? You speak of diversity but don't acknowledge it when it comes to opinions. I have no beef with you, djtoken, or MilwaukeeMax (is he still here), I enjoy the debate.
 

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No echo chamber, lots of Republicans here on the forum itself. But keep in mind it's dedicated to urbanism, and so it is going to have a liberal bias because successful urban centers tend to be more liberal. I'm Center-Left, check the Politics section. I however have NO patience for dog-whistles. I will call you out every time on it because those dog-whistles have and continue to hold Milwaukee back. Again, if you really believe what you're selling - go out and try in the real world and see how it's received. Get back to us once you do.
 

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Only if you make them have a racial subtext. Black residents also rely heavily on the highways (as does everyone else), have little access to the streetcar (like everyone else), and don't all live in public housing. Locating your new world class museum next to a housing project, busy off-ramp, dangerous intersection, and electrical substation is bizarre and ought to be commented on.
Are you really this stupid? People rely on the highways and cars because we give them literally no other option, is this your notion of freedom? Having to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a shitty mode of transit (in so much as far as how they work in urban environments) just to carry out your basic daily necessities?

People also lack access to the streetcar because people of your ilk won't vote for people who support funding transit on any sort of reasonable or equitable level. Instead almost all of Milwaukee's transportation dollars are going to benefit upper middle class to rich suburban dwellers in Waukesha and Ozaukee counties.
 

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Are you really this stupid? People rely on the highways and cars because we give them literally no other option, is this your notion of freedom? Having to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a shitty mode of transit (in so much as far as how they work in urban environments) just to carry out your basic daily necessities?

People also lack access to the streetcar because people of your ilk won't vote for people who support funding transit on any sort of reasonable or equitable level. Instead almost all of Milwaukee's transportation dollars are going to benefit upper middle class to rich suburban dwellers in Waukesha and Ozaukee counties.
We give them no other option because mass transit is expensive and people vote for their cars. Only social engineers like you are losing sleep over this. Everyone else, including black people, prefer to drive for convenience and comfort. Your streetcar means absolutely nothing to someone who needs to work across town, pick up kids from school, and then go grocery shopping on the way home. That is the reality of life in most of America regardless of class or color lines, aside from a few major cities like New York or Chicago with widespread historic heavy rail that we will never have, no matter how much you complain about it.

Our cities are too spread out and that isn't changing. The cost of enacting your utopian vision is a pipe dream. Wake up to your electric car and bus future, not 19th century transit technology. Demand will be for clean, efficient, comfortable electric cars---NOT $200 billion in new infrastructure. Cars allow freedom of movement and choice, the least possible racist thing I can imagine. They are expensive, yes, but necessary.
 

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No echo chamber, lots of Republicans here on the forum itself. But keep in mind it's dedicated to urbanism, and so it is going to have a liberal bias because successful urban centers tend to be more liberal. I'm Center-Left, check the Politics section. I however have NO patience for dog-whistles. I will call you out every time on it because those dog-whistles have and continue to hold Milwaukee back. Again, if you really believe what you're selling - go out and try in the real world and see how it's received. Get back to us once you do.
Anything opposite of your political beliefs can't always be a dog whistle. Can't you see the danger in this, how dialogue is stymied and how race (utilized by white guys arguing with other white guys, no less) is being used as a barrier to constructive debate?

I've lived here my entire life and this excessive defensiveness and victimhood by people in this city is misplaced. I see things from both sides as an urban Republican. Milwaukee has been very successful in slowing the bleed and rejuvenating many areas of the city. It's struggles are all self-made and no change in government or tax dollars from Waukesha will change fundamental problems here. The only way forward is to fix our own issues. Civic pride is free and goes a long way towards making neighborhoods safer, schools better, and this optimism/success will attract outside investors/businesses. The urban-suburban freeze will be thawed and then you can start talking about more regional cooperation. It starts here, not in Madison or Waukesha. That is my philosophy. You need a political mix and diversity of thought or else you become oppressive. Once you chase people like me out, they will assuredly find new targets to blame for the failures. That isn't healthy in any society and you are smart enough to know I'm right.
 

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We give them no other option because mass transit is expensive and people vote for their cars. Only social engineers like you are losing sleep over this. Everyone else, including black people, prefer to drive for convenience and comfort. Your streetcar means absolutely nothing to someone who needs to work across town, pick up kids from school, and then go grocery shopping on the way home. That is the reality of life in most of America regardless of class or color lines, aside from a few major cities like New York or Chicago with widespread historic heavy rail that we will never have, no matter how much you complain about it.

Our cities are too spread out and that isn't changing. The cost of enacting your utopian vision is a pipe dream. Wake up to your electric car and bus future, not 19th century transit technology. Demand will be for clean, efficient, comfortable electric cars---NOT $200 billion in new infrastructure. Cars allow freedom of movement and choice, the least possible racist thing I can imagine. They are expensive, yes, but necessary.
Milwaukee is the densest city in the Midwest after Chicago and it was originally built around rail, that is to say you're completely full of shit here and have no idea what you're talking about regarding transit and cars (hint: cars are only cheap because of truly massive government subsidies). Furthermore you say you're from here, where in the city do you live? Do you actually live in Milwaukee? Or do you just live in a burb and say you live here?

I'm going to leave it at that, except to say that your myopic viewpoint is what prolongs racial disparity and holds the city back as a whole.
 

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Keep yapping. But save your ire for yourself, not me bro. You've earned every rebuke here from me and from others. Your takes have always been bad, if not flat out wrong. They've just continued to get worse. You clearly don't spend any time in communities of color, so maybe listen when people tell you how you and your opinions are received. Would it help if I showed up to your house with a diverse group of millennials and had them weigh in real time? Would that get you to wake up? Or would you just deflect?

I argue with you because you clearly don't understand what makes a city successful, and cling to outdated or counter-productive notions of what Milwaukee is or should be. You were opposed to the street car. Are opposed to a new Museum even as it risks losing its certification. Opposed to the Bucks arena even as we risked losing the team. Are opposed to an expanded Convention Center. Opposed to an increased marginal beverage tax. Literally opposed to anything that costs money but either has had a huge benefit or eventually will. This attitude is not only cheap, it's stupid. The great cities all invest in themselves. So glad an increasing number of Milwaukeeans don't think like you. Your way of thinking hopefully dies out with the Boomers.
I agree with you 100%, and I'm a boomer. We don't all think alike. As

products of the 60's , in many ways we are/were progressive beyond anything seen in today's America.
 

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Milwaukee is the densest city in the Midwest after Chicago and it was originally built around rail, that is to say you're completely full of shit here and have no idea what you're talking about regarding transit and cars (hint: cars are only cheap because of truly massive government subsidies). Furthermore you say you're from here, where in the city do you live? Do you actually live in Milwaukee? Or do you just live in a burb and say you live here?

I'm going to leave it at that, except to say that your myopic viewpoint is what prolongs racial disparity and holds the city back as a whole.
I'm not denying that Milwaukee is dense but it's also very car-friendly, aside from the pot-holes. The future transit in this city is electric, maybe even autonomous buses that can navigate the roads and use the highway. We can avoid spending billions tearing up the entire city to play "catch up" with advances in technology. Why are you all so hung up on trains? I see the value maybe in high speed rail to Chicago and maybe a commuter rail line to Waukesha but the inner-city neighborhoods will never have access to any of it. Any rail infrastructure will benefit the people you already consider privileged.

Can't we just have any exchange or debate without you insulting me? I'm trying to be respectful to you yet you continue to question my residence or accuse me of things. I just listed off half the businesses on Old World Third St. and have been a member of this forum for 16 years. Where the hell do you think I live?!
 

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The operative word is not all but most. Thanks for being you.
That might be true, most, not all , but when the boomers die out, the people that championed civil rights, gay rights, the environmental movement, the anti war movement, communal living, the movement for healthy, organic foods, the movement to ditch the car ( in the 60's and 70's Madison had more registered bicycles than cars ) and we took the bus and road the trains. I'm just saying, the world turned around because of boomers in the 60's and 70's, laying the ground work for a lot of ideas we see today. Those of us that stuck to those values, and you're right, not everyone did, but those of us that did... when the time comes, we gladly pass the torch on to whoever will pick it up and think outside the box and stand up for change for the sake of the greater good .
 

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Cars and trains are both transit technologies that have roots in 19th century.

The infrastructure for cars is also expensive.

Of course people are always going to drive, but it’s also no coincidence that growing and successful cities in this country all seem to have developed rail systems or are planning to develop them. Do you really think that Milwaukee is the city of the future (car) and multi-modal cities like Seattle and Portland are living in the 19th century?
 

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Hell, not even Portland or Seattle. Salt Lake City and Minneapolis both have great light rail and are significantly less dense than Milwaukee. I don’t think El Mariachi at all understands what Milwaukee had transit wise at one point.
 

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Hell, not even Portland or Seattle. Salt Lake City and Minneapolis both have great light rail and are significantly less dense than Milwaukee. I don’t think El Mariachi at all understands what Milwaukee had transit wise at one point.
I'll just say that trolley/rail is the future. Most "modernized" cities are doing it. Its like not accepting electrification 120 years ago.

As many of you know, I live every other week in MKE/PDX. MKE has great infrastructure and opportunity but needs to expand. The streetcar and the MAX are awesome solutions.
 

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Cars and trains are both transit technologies that have roots in 19th century.

The infrastructure for cars is also expensive.

Of course people are always going to drive, but it’s also no coincidence that growing and successful cities in this country all seem to have developed rail systems or are planning to develop them. Do you really think that Milwaukee is the city of the future (car) and multi-modal cities like Seattle and Portland are living in the 19th century?
The infrastructure for cars is expensive but it already exists and serves multiple purposes. Freight transportation isn't ever going anywhere, so you will always need highways and roads. Building a new mass transit system, from scratch, is astronomical---at least to the level that will make people here happy. Sure, you might be able to contruct one or two lines somewhere but they can never be useful to anywhere close to the vast majority of people in this city or region. Even in Chicago, 50% of commuters still drive their cars and they have rail infrastructure (and road traffic) that is beyond anything we can dream of.

We missed the boat on rail in the past but we can be at the forefront of electric, autonomous, and battery powered vehicles. I feel this is a more prudent use of limited taxpayer money than trying to play catch-up to other cities because we feel not having rail transit makes us less than. I think this obsession, almost anger here on any topic regarding transportation largely being a product of that. We can try bus rapid transit, as well.

I would be less opposed to rail, of course, if Milwaukee's (and suburbs) population were to explode but we aren't anywhere close to that. Our priorities are elsewhere thus. You all think lack of rail transit is the cause of our low-population growth, I think it's our crime rate, concern with schools, weather, and job market. It's not like Chicago, a much larger version of ourselves, is booming in population either, despite having trains. Like us, their attractive parts of the city are thriving while everything else is declining or treading water. How can we fix those areas? It isn't the commuting that is the problem. Cities like Minneapolis, Seattle, or Portland don't have those perceptions, even after last summer. We are lumped in with Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, etc. Crime-ridden, depressed industrial cities.

We've done a good job changing some of that perception without the trains, as the downtown area has become more of a cool place to be the last 20 or so years. We've done this by focusing on the individual neighborhoods and even creating new ones, like the Beerline, Third Ward, or Pabst. This is why I am so bothered by this unintentional damage to the theme of Old World Third St. This patchwork of unique neighborhoods within and surrounding/connected to downtown with plenty of room for expansion north and westward. This was all done without trains or gridlock.

Milwaukee needs some growth but do you really want to explode in population? I think the charm would quickly be lost, as the entire city becomes yuppie/hipsterfied. Unlike most, I think we exist in a preferable position as an affordable but improving city. People dream of massive population growth but don't realize we are essentially apart of the third-largest city in the country at the fringe of Chicagoland. We have most of the advantages and few of the disadvantages of a major city, including access to an international airport with O'Hare. We should seek better connections with Chicago. I'm not opposed to the Hiawatha and would agree to any proposal to a bullet train there. I'm not opposed to the KRM proposal.
 
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