[René Kedus]

 

[ch1le]

i think that the trains will have problems getting from the high plateau all the way down to downtown level... the gradient would be too big.

 

[Tin_Can]

Creating a central PT hub would be interesting Maybe proposed light rail lines could use railway tunnel to get in the city centre from Ülemiste area (light rail line to airport) and later continue on it's own tunnel under Old Town to western Tallinn?

Btw,central bus station in Viru would be a bit problematic because of rush hour traffic.

 

[Rebasepoiss]

^^ I've thought about something similar a lot of times and even though I think it's a seriously cool idea, I know it will never be realised. There just aren't enough resources.

Btw, about the gradient: I made a small calculation and it's a 30m drop over 2km which makes a gradient of 1.5% or 0.88 degrees. Trains can easily do that.

 

[ch1le]

^^ I've thought about something similar a lot of times and even though I think it's a seriously cool idea, I know it will never be realised. There just aren't enough resources.

Btw, about the gradient: I made a small calculation and it's a 30m drop over 2km which makes a gradient of 1.5% or 0.88 degrees. Trains can easily do that.

Okay Good to hear, i was just making the assumption based on the fact that the current route was chosen because of the gradient. But hey, its been over a hundred years!

 

[Tin_Can]

^^ I've thought about something similar a lot of times and even though I think it's a seriously cool idea, I know it will never be realised. There just aren't enough resources.

There aren't not enough politicians who are interested about PT development

Such PT hub with tunnel to Ülemiste would be maybe 1/3 or even less of construction volume and cost of full scale subway. If railway tunnel to Viru would also be used by light rail,then it coul have few stations along the way - kind of cheap,'fake' metro line . And extension of light rail line to Western Tallinn might be built in several stages.

Tunnel construction might be hard though. I can't remember exactly,but didn't Downtown had solid rock in 30-50m deep? (don't quote me on this one,I might be wrong) This would mean that railway tunnel & Viru PT hub would be in soft earth (although St.Petersburg is example that even is such terrain underground tunnels can be built)

 

[René Kedus]

First of all, thank you for your feedback, this is just an idea (maybe mania grandiosa or "wet fantasy" or whatsoever for someone, but who cares!).

Then, could it be this way that I, no, actually I would prefer the word we: we consider all the ideas with each other - the ones who are willing to take part of this so-called mind game or brainstorm or so on?

And, as I am going to study the THING with 3D graphic programs I will make a three-dimensional well-detailed and exact (streetview will be out there too) model of the downtown area of TLN (from the end of Kalamaja to the airport and from Kristiine Centre to the Estonian Song Festival Grounds [the base - a 180MB map picture file took some sleepless nights]) also with the "Viru New Terminals" to show the real potential of the city.

This is more like experimental generating of ideas to grow and evolve.
The image above was just a sketch, I will make a better one. And, the idea is a non-profit one for me, for sure.

 

[René Kedus]

INCIDENTAL REMARK: By the by, I read that the words Viru and Virumaa come from a word "viiru" that means eki.ee: |kitsas vöönd, triip, vööt; joon| and also 'edge' or 'border'. Like, the land of edge. It is said that Virumaa starts with Viru Gate of the Old Town and heads away to Narva river.

Hyper-borea = Virumaa (Viirumaa, Viirmaa, Virma(lised)), Bjarmia (Piirmaa), Permi
bor-der = viiru-, veeru-, ääre-, piiri
Hyperborea = piir(i)maa, viir(u)maa, veer(e)maa, ilmaveeremaa
to veer, to swerve, gyro = veerema, pöörama, keerama, allamäge veerema, üle ääre veerema

midagi siiski on, Fortes

Hyperborea = Sürjä-Komi, Permi-Komi = Perämaa, tagamaa, ääremaa

Veer ja veerema põhinevad esimesel ja teisel tuletisel - jooned ja piirkonnad, kus esimene tuletis on null või lõpmatus; või siis jooned ja piirkonnad kus esimene tuletis erineb nullist. Kivi veereb ikka gradienti pidi ja jääb seisma seal kus tuletis on null. Kitsamas tähenduses on veeruks ala, kus teine tuletis on negatiivne (nõo veerud), positiivse teise tuletisega alad on nõlvad (mäe nõlvad). Nii et soome-ugrilastel ja proto-eurooplastel oli algeline tuletistest arusaam päris olemas.

midagi siiski on, Fortes

 

[Tin_Can]

And, as I am going to study the THING with 3D graphic programs I will make a three-dimensional well-detailed and exact (streetview will be out there too) model of the downtown area of TLN (from the end of Kalamaja to the airport and from Kristiine Centre to the Estonian Song Festival Grounds [the base - a 180MB map picture file took some sleepless nights]) also with the "Viru New Terminals" to show the real potential of the city.

It would be awesome if you could later post it on internet Plz?

After all,Downtown is really sexy & in constant change unlike cheesy Old Town & it's city-backed 3D model.

 

[René Kedus]

This will take some months as I have currently so many things to do, but I promise to give my best, what ever it takes.
There is only one problem: there used to be an interactive map of Tallinn, that I cannot find anymore, with ground-level heights from the zero sea-level(?).

 

[Wover]

I've always thought about this scheme which involves putting the tram underground and serving the old town as well:

Black = Current tram tracks to be used in the future
Blue = Current tram tracks to be put out of service
Red = Pre-metro tunnels to be constructed
Red circles = Stops

Advantages for this system: Old town will be served, travel times Balti Jaam - Bussijaam will be cut,... The Vabaduse Väljak station could be connected to the current pedestrian tunnel and same goes for the Balti Jaam station. Also some roads that are nowadays clogged up with traffic could be widened or bus lanes could be added.


edit: Forgot tram tracks to Kadriorg, but that doesn't matter that much .
Also, I would upgrade the tracks that are in bad shape and extend the Tondi line to Männiku.

 

[laurentius]

So how about just building it a proper metro?

 

[Wover]

So how about just building it a proper metro?

Lots of reasons:

- Too expensive: entirely new infrastructure and not re-using the already existing one
- Too small: Tallinn has rougly 400 000 inhabitants, which is too little for a proper metro system. I originally come from near Antwerp, Belgium where they have the same system of pre-metro, which works just fine. In size, it's pretty similar to Tallinn. http://urbanrail.net/eu/ant/antwerpen.htm

 

[René Kedus]

Building the so-called pre-metro tubes under the Old Town?
This would be a badass situation:

*firstly, the layer of cultures may be rather deep (you know, old tunnels, wells, and other strange stuff) + the buildings - so, this means that the tubes have to be deeply located
*secondly, the Old Town is not that highly populated at the time
*then, aboveground traffic scheme is quite disorganized and narrow
*finally, the surroundings of Viru Centre has better opportunities, possibilities

On the other hand, metro stations (or one central station under the Town Hall square or something) could vivify the Old Town from an artificial courtyard or superficial theme park to a positevely evolving, self-repairing, outstanding and very worth element of the city Tallinn.
Like, to switch on a bulb.

 

[Tin_Can]

There isn't any good way of connecting Eastern & Western parts of Tallinn,only mediocre options. Underground tunnels would be easiest solution as they would allow light rail to avoid narrow streets & dense building blocks. In case of underground light rail,Old Town would only need 1-2 stations (preferably one in lower Old Town and one in Toompea)

Only other option would be creating elevated tramways (i.e. - multi level streets,like in New York or Berlin) in dense spots of Downtown,but it's hardly cost efficient and has several problems - they tend to be ugly & break up street 'atmosphere',have serious noise issues etc.

Building additional conventional tramways in Dowtown is almost impossible...unless some streets would be converted for pedestrian use only,as there simply isn't any room to fit tramlines in narrow streets without creating problems related to rush hours & car traffic. I'm not sure if tramways on one way and 1+1 streets (sharing same lanes as cars) would be possible here,as drivers often seem to ignore such 'small' thing as a tram :lol: