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A NEW £110m development is being planned on the site of the doomed Fourth Grace.

But instead of a landmark building in the style of the Cloud, it could be a mixture of offices, homes and a "winter gardens" exhibition centre.

It would fill about twothirds of the Mann Island site, with a Museum of Liverpool taking up the rest.

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3XN's museum building looks quite interesting, but it is disturbing that this, constituting only one third of the site, seems according to the report to exhaust architectural ambitions. The whole thing should be 'landmark structure'.

I'm not convinced either about a 'city museum' as a major attraction. NML's plan for a museum of the slave trade is I think more promising in this role, but they seem to be planning to accommodate it in a smaller building, maybe an existing one. Perhaps they don't have much stuff.
 

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I think the search for a landmark was doomed, and what is best is something (or some things) that are dignified, properly scaled, high quality but blend rather than try to impose themselves in that space. Yes, sorry to say that, I don't mean pastiche (you can't do pastiche on that site, given the variety of styles around it) but something that bridges the space and differences in style between the Dock Office and Albert Dock buildings, and doesn't try to out-Grace them. I have argued on another thread for a subtle "straight lined" (not curvey or cloudy) and mostly glass building there, on the grounds that such a structure would best combine the difficult role of being dignified and blending at the same time. But whatever they do, it cant be worse than that ridiculous Allsop idea. That was a catastrophe - a replica Brookside Close would have been better, as at least you know it would be replaced in a decade or so. (They could have recreated the soap there, maybe with live performances for tourists,,,,,might have attracted a cult following ....)

So I am cautiously optimisitic, like others here it seems.
 

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But that site is not suited to a "centrepiece", that was the problem. I am not advocating a replica of Brookside Close, that would be silly, just saying it would be better than the Cloud, which was even sillier. It would be good to put something dignified, the right size, and non-clashing up there that will last 20 or 30 years. But an alternative is a park, which would be better than a car showroom and various huts.
 

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Accura_Preston said:
Wasnt Brookside Close demolished in the end? :laugh:
A park would be great next to the water. Makes up for the missed opportunity at Princess Dock.
Agreed, in my fantasty master plan for Liverpool from my youth (a rolling project), Princess Dock was ALWAYS a park - building on it seems insane given the predicament of the City Centre and its needs.

very successful cities often have attractive and generous parks in their centres - New York, Paris, London, Barcelona - all have very big parks in their centres.
 

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liverpolitan said:
Agreed, in my fantasty master plan for Liverpool from my youth (a rolling project), Princess Dock was ALWAYS a park - building on it seems insane given the predicament of the City Centre and its needs.

very successful cities often have attractive and generous parks in their centres - New York, Paris, London, Barcelona - all have very big parks in their centres.
Aah, but Liverpolitan. Birkenhead Park, on which New York's great park is based, is but an 8 min tube ride from Liverpool city centre. Chavasse park might make a good park in the end.
 

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As for this £110M development- I don't know what all the fuss is about. The three graces are functional buildings that are part of the city. Isn't the idea of building functional stuff near them just continuing what was started? i.e. a city? The problem is, everybody has created this image of the three graces as being hallowed- (the name 'three graces' for example)- at the end of the day they are just city buildings that happen to look really good. They are not religious sites even if WHS tries to make it that way.

As long as the new development looks good and is commercially viable- BRING IT ON! Then the three graces can be part of an extended built up environment, rather than standing alone as these isolated monuments that everybody has turned them into (in their heads.)

On the one hand I think the mueseum of Liverpool could come across as self indulgent. On the other hand I think the city has a an awful lot to say about itself from the last 700 odd years and perhaps outsiders can be persuaded it is worth looking around.

The apartments, etc. I like the idea- I would love an apartment there and I'm sure others will pay big money for one. It would be a good area (esp. with up n coming PSDA and Princes Dock/Old Hall St/ Kings Dock) to have smart restaurants, cafes, bars, apartments and offices- just like all the other stuff in that area.

In design terms, I think something classical looking should be adjacent to the graces. The design of the mueseum is worthy- not as bold and awkward as the cloud.
 

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Blabbernsmoke said:
Aah, but Liverpolitan. Birkenhead Park, on which New York's great park is based, is but an 8 min tube ride from Liverpool city centre. Chavasse park might make a good park in the end.
I suppose in 50 years time, inner Birkenhead might be fully a part of the CBD for Greater Liverpool, and so Birkenhead Park could fulfill the same role then as Central Park does in Manhattan now. But while I know the reality is that someone in the Moorfields or Lime Street area could jump on the underground and be strolling around that park in a few minutes, in practice, they just won't currently, because it is not perceived as being close or local.

Chavasse Park was, I thought, just a temporary bit of grassing pending development of the site, they never made any real effort with it, and it looked desolate and stupid. Isn't it being built over for the Paradise St scheme?
 

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Blabbernsmoke said:
As for this £110M development- I don't know what all the fuss is about. The three graces are functional buildings that are part of the city. Isn't the idea of building functional stuff near them just continuing what was started? i.e. a city? The problem is, everybody has created this image of the three graces as being hallowed- (the name 'three graces' for example)- at the end of the day they are just city buildings that happen to look really good. They are not religious sites even if WHS tries to make it that way.
How dare you! Call yourself a Liverpudlian? Don't you know that these 'world class' buildings should be worshipped and they are the be all and end all? Nothing is allowed to compromise them remember! They are Liverpool!

Seriously though, I do agree with you. The 3 Graces (Well 4 actually, the ventilation shaft is also a masterpiece) are stunning, and are a fitting symbol to the City. But, we can't live in the past. We need 21st century buildings that will become City icons. In 100 years time will the 3 graces still be the centre piece for the waterfront?

I hope a high quality building is built on this site and not just a quick fix.

Liverpolitan, I think Chavasse Park will be rebuilt once the underground car park is complete, and we will have a new park with better landscaping, benches, fountains etc
 

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LiverOdysea said:
the Car showrooms front is nice.
It was some important Building once
Good point - it's not at all bad, but I dont know the history of the building. Am I right in saying it's a Porsche showroom? There is a tradition from London of putting prestige car showrooms in prestige streets - there are quite a few on Piccadilly and Park Lane, (handy for the locals when they pop out to buy a new Bentley) so it's not odd in terms of land use (although a tractor or Hyundai showroom would be). I'd have no complaints if that showroom was saved as part of site redevelopment.
 

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Further to my last post; I do really love the 3 Graces- as a set they do look perfect and superb, with the (very high quality) range of styles. I agree, they are very iconic of Liverpool and that gives them even more of a charm.
But I just think they will still look great, perhaps even better, in amongst other stuff. Perhaps this newly created architecture panel (discussed in today's Echo) of a CABE respresentative and an architect will add the scrutiny needed to make sure the new development is up to par.
 
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