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Cloth Market

Further work may be taking place further down from Pumphrey.

View attachment 262384
Great to see those buildings getting some work, they are an absolute shed at the moment. Rather spoils the atmosphere if you're sitting outside at Revolucion de Cuba. Shame it's very quiet on the Malhotra / White Hart Yard front.

Speaking of Revolucion de Cuba - the whole chain apparently has running costs of £400k per week. Oof! Planning to re-open in August: https://www.irishnews.com/business/2020/06/05/news/revolucio-n-de-cuba-owner-taps-investors-for-15m-as-it-eyes-august-reopening-1964534/
 

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Soooooo....

Diamond Strip bars spared from shutdown over drug claims

The licence is suspended for a whole three months, that would be the same three months that the builders are refurbishing the place. Goodness that's such a tough sanction, I do hope that the operator is considering an appeal...

Refreshing to see that licencing is returning to its usual robust self, how high, yes of course, delighted to, we're so sorry, it's your red carpet, we wouldn't dream of standing on it. Carry your bundles to the taxi, delighted to, so kind of you to ask. Three months, are you sure that's alright, yes we did read the construction schedule, no we wouldn't want to stop you from opening. Thank you so much for not appealing, much obliged, thank you, thank you.

Newcastle city centre Chief Inspector Steve Wykes said he hoped the decision “sends a strong warning to other licensees”, despite the police failing in their bid to close the venues down
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They missed through clenched teeth.... the police must wonder why they bother. In reality they might as well send a car along the Diamond Strip every couple of hours trailing an ambulance to tidy up the assaults and just ignore the sounds of sniffing.....

Ah no, a tour round suburban off licences where you can rest assured that selling a can of stella to a 15 year old [with a convincing false beard and moustache] in a test purchase will result in a licencing binning your prem' licence faster than you can say no risk of an appeal....
 

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Does ‘Riverside’ fall under pubs/clubs? If so I wasn’t sure if this astroturf was new or if I’d just never noticed it before:
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Interested to know posters' feels about the opening of pubs in the city centre.

The Black Garter has become a social media joke with the 8:30am queuers.
 

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The garter was already famous for some if it's clients waiting for the doors to open along with the sun rising...it even had a queue at 3pm! They have a 9am start so the 8.30 queuers are probably legit, but c'mon this is Newcastle the land where laizzez faire and I saw nothing is a policy.

There were lots of street pavement cafes where at best they were outside the margins of their demarcated area. I suspect that licensing will play true to form and lighten their already near invisible touch unless there are some utterly un-ignoreable events, probably starring on the front page of the Mirror....

I'd estimate about 50% of the pubs were open and I doubt that any you would want to go into were making any money.

Some will be difficult to manage [think the Crown], some will have staff on contract and will be looking at furlough - open and you have to pay them real money or look at redundancy [neither desirable in the current landscape].

The only busy bars were those frequented by 9am drinkers and shrieking grossly over-dressed geordie shore types.
 

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It’s not a time for pedantic issues about pavement tables. Newcastle needs an increased outside drinking and eating culture based on table service where you trust the public to be reasonable as happens in every part of Europe-currently this is for public health but it’s long overdue anyway. Every cafe should be able to sell alcohol if they wish to do so and noise is part and parcel of a city centre so there is only a need for say 10pm finish outdoors. The current system promotes monoculture and over regulation, as well as unsustainable rents and so we get chains and “leisure” outfits opening crap bars and restaurants. The greater number and choice the less corralling of people in to environments which promote bad behaviour, disorder and organised drug supply. If you have a toilet and a fire safety certificate that should be it.
 

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I know the Black Garter clientele has been sneered at on here in the past, but you can't question their loyalty!

My mate used to work the door here and I would sometimes go in, they had a fab drag act ( Ophilia Balls), happy days.
 

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It’s not a time for pedantic issues about pavement tables. Newcastle needs an increased outside drinking and eating culture based on table service where you trust the public to be reasonable as happens in every part of Europe-currently this is for public health but it’s long overdue anyway. Every cafe should be able to sell alcohol if they wish to do so and noise is part and parcel of a city centre so there is only a need for say 10pm finish outdoors. The current system promotes monoculture and over regulation, as well as unsustainable rents and so we get chains and “leisure” outfits opening crap bars and restaurants. The greater number and choice the less corralling of people in to environments which promote bad behaviour, disorder and organised drug supply. If you have a toilet and a fire safety certificate that should be it.
To a point, and if newcastle had any regulation beyond 'on you go' I would actually be standing there with you in support, I ve lived and worked in cities where your model works.

No opinion has posted lots on this, and we've discussed the 'Habsburg model' of people almost living over the shops with small local bars, shops and so on but I'd argue that for that to work [here] you need some regulation otherwise you'd simply have people opening whatever would give maximum return - see the diamond strip and in fact much of the city centre where your model of fire cert and a toilet is already what we have. In fact a number of councillors have told me [and have stated this publicly] that it's almost impossible to stop the issue of a prem licence, despite the licensing policy which in the core city says the opposite.

In this city or under this licencing authority where there is already almost zero regulation [see Apartment and so on] you'd simply have a complete free for all with the bigg market - diamond strip monoculture extending throughout the entire city centre. You'd also almost certainly still have the cash rich medium sized and upwards operators driving out all but the most niche establishments though their better margins, worse staffing policies and so on.

The problem is also that Gresham's law applies as much to bars as to money, bad ones drive out good ones [bad being subjective but essentially pile nasty drinks high and sell it cheap to people consuming it standing up] because the clientele drives away the 'spenders' who want to sit in a nice street cafe. I'm not likely to want to spend 20 quid on two glasses of wine to sit at a street table with Mrs NP when I'm going to be cheek by jowl with Waynetta on her 5th 'sex on the beach'.

That's not to say your model is impossible, it's not, but it requires intervention by the authorities: minimum pricing, food conditions [enforced, they rarely if ever are]. To create a more heterogeneous nightime economy someone needs to decide what it looks like and 'make it happen', just leaving the market to sort itself out rarely produces anything positive. There is also a bigger discussion about British business culture and the weighting towards large businesses, the European model works in a european political and social context.

There are wider questions [and TBH I am thinking pre covid] where the nightime economy is [was?] becoming much more polarised. Living in the suburbs people are tending to either drink and eat local or at home so the city centre tends to attract a clientele [student and stag] which probably doesn't want a Parisian street cafe where they can pretend to be Sartre and de Beauvoir, they want trebles and carling.

Finally, and this is a much bigger conversation, but the British public [and I accept this is a generalisation] tends to have a very different relationship with drink from many European ones, what works in Munich doesn't necessarily work here.
 

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There’s themes through that answer that the public will revert to choosing the trashiest options for their entertainment and there is something almost genetic that makes NE people shocking with drink. I disagree this is the case-some will and are but it would be an ever smaller proportion given greater choice. There is regulation at the moment and it doesn’t work -late night levy creating the last orders effect again and only affordable for bigger businesses, bouncers and security cameras required ( aka protection and drug dealing allegedly ), hearings and appeals that cost money,hypothetical noise and disorder complaints with worst case scenarios given credence, police objections who should police by consent but instead want to determine what people do (usually what they know hence the monoculture)-I could go on. The historical examples of shocking policy (discrimination even) are legion. The Bigg Market didn’t spread all through the city, it was self limited by demand, but policy and licensing killed off or moved other options. Every city has “aspirational” (sic) bars like Apartment but no one makes them thrive like Newcastle’s awful regulation over many years.
I do concede some checks and balances are needed but there would be beneficial effects from rent control greater than current licensing.
 

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I'd mention that one of the subtler social byproducts of the 'Habsburg' model is the near constant state of informal policing and vigilance you get in a mixed use environment.

The Bigg Market's problem is that the place is pretty much a monofunction. The entire street is catered for activity only after 9pm.

Don't get me wrong, i'd hate to live above a Pig and Whistle type establishment, it would be a living hell, and retrofitting residences above some hovels would be nearly impossible now. But if there had always been a population in our city centre, people power would have moderated a lot of the excesses.
 

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Andy M said:
The Bigg Market didn’t spread all through the city, it was self limited by demand, but policy and licensing killed off or moved other options. Every city has “aspirational” (sic) bars like Apartment but no one makes them thrive like Newcastle’s awful regulation over many years.

I do concede some checks and balances are needed but there would be beneficial effects from rent control greater than current licensing.
I suppose I see the 'diamond strip', Gate and the Bigg Market as just being points on a continuum, both customers and location - sure you have popworld etc at one end of the spectrum and 'say' Perdu at the other end with points in between. They all attract a very similar clientele again albeit on a contunuum - youngish vertical drinkers who want to get hammered, the only difference is [and this sounds awful I accept] the cost of the drinks, the cost of the fixtures and fittings and the cost of the clothing.

Rent control might do it, [I assume you mean perhaps a cap for small companies to encourage diversity] but it would have to be very well crafted to ensure that you didn't just get [say] Danielli creating a lot of micro subsidiary companies to increase their bottom line.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like your model but operators have been playing the game with NCC for years and in a head to head between you and I opening a micropub selling really interesting bottles vs Apartment group 'next door' I know who would win unless the council somehow levelled the playing field.

I've a feeling from posts etc that we're in roughly the same bit of the political spectrum [if not hands up and apologise] and my two penneth is that rarely does de-regulation [as opposed to de monopolising] make things better for anyone other than the businesses being de regulated.

I'd mention that one of the subtler social byproducts of the 'Habsburg' model is the near constant state of informal policing and vigilance you get in a mixed use environment.

The Bigg Market's problem is that the place is pretty much a monofunction. The entire street is catered for activity only after 9pm.

Don't get me wrong, i'd hate to live above a Pig and Whistle type establishment, it would be a living hell, and retrofitting residences above some hovels would be nearly impossible now. But if there had always been a population in our city centre, people power would have moderated a lot of the excesses.
Yes, and unfortunately as we've discussed it's really difficult to adapt a lot of city centre stuff to residential. I guess the mono use for the city goes back to Grainger with retail and offices [albeit in lovely buildings] and what was presumably a flight to the edges [and the creation of terraces for the 'workers' at the periphery, close to the factories etc].

Even people power doesn't always work - when 55 got it's 3am licence and food condition removed a full 1/3 of the residents above [by property if that makes sense, 1/3 of the front doors] objected - huge for a city centre apartment where there are fewer owner occupiers and lots are on short term lets [so less invested, we'll just move out] , even then it was waved thru [subsequently 'returned' because it was a rotten bar no one wanted to be in at 3am... perhaps a different people power].

What makes the difference is economic power, most licences are waved thru with a deep bow because the applicant has the money and a significant financial interest in getting the proposal through. They arrive lawyered up and the council is terrified of the costs of an appeal, the residents [unless they are willing to throw a lot of money at it and potentially lose a lot of money] have no chance.
 

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I suppose I see the 'diamond strip', Gate and the Bigg Market as just being points on a continuum, both customers and location - sure you have popworld etc at one end of the spectrum and 'say' Perdu at the other end with points in between. They all attract a very similar clientele again albeit on a contunuum - youngish vertical drinkers who want to get hammered, the only difference is [and this sounds awful I accept] the cost of the drinks, the cost of the fixtures and fittings and the cost of the clothing.

Rent control might do it, [I assume you mean perhaps a cap for small companies to encourage diversity] but it would have to be very well crafted to ensure that you didn't just get [say] Danielli creating a lot of micro subsidiary companies to increase their bottom line.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like your model but operators have been playing the game with NCC for years and in a head to head between you and I opening a micropub selling really interesting bottles vs Apartment group 'next door' I know who would win unless the council somehow levelled the playing field.

I've a feeling from posts etc that we're in roughly the same bit of the political spectrum [if not hands up and apologise] and my two penneth is that rarely does de-regulation [as opposed to de monopolising] make things better for anyone other than the businesses being de regulated.



Yes, and unfortunately as we've discussed it's really difficult to adapt a lot of city centre stuff to residential. I guess the mono use for the city goes back to Grainger with retail and offices [albeit in lovely buildings] and what was presumably a flight to the edges [and the creation of terraces for the 'workers' at the periphery, close to the factories etc].

Even people power doesn't always work - when 55 got it's 3am licence and food condition removed a full 1/3 of the residents above [by property if that makes sense, 1/3 of the front doors] objected - huge for a city centre apartment where there are fewer owner occupiers and lots are on short term lets [so less invested, we'll just move out] , even then it was waved thru [subsequently 'returned' because it was a rotten bar no one wanted to be in at 3am... perhaps a different people power].

What makes the difference is economic power, most licences are waved thru with a deep bow because the applicant has the money and a significant financial interest in getting the proposal through. They arrive lawyered up and the council is terrified of the costs of an appeal, the residents [unless they are willing to throw a lot of money at it and potentially lose a lot of money] have no chance.
You are perceptive-I would call myself a Titoist if pushed! I would push for a model of market socialism of small scale enterprise to the exclusion of conventional capitalist corporations but maybe that’s beyond the scope of Newcastle City Council.
 

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You are perceptive-I would call myself a Titoist if pushed! I would push for a model of market socialism of small scale enterprise to the exclusion of conventional capitalist corporations but maybe that’s beyond the scope of Newcastle City Council.
I wish but yes I suspect it is :).

This was the image from Pravda, huge. I d buy it tomorrow, [arguably] ' the lost leaders'.

 

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So this is social distancing ... Jalou. NCJ.... one for you. I know you lurk..

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And Glasshouse... no prem licence.... seems to be opening. Licencing..?

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Also in coivid...[Jalou]

UPDATE:

Troubled Newcastle bar reopens despite council trying to close it down


So they're appealing, if you listen you'll hear a carpenter building stairs which licencing can back down on whilst channel-ing Dickens' oh so 'umble Uriah Heep.

So sorry to have troubled you with a closure, complete misunderstanding, thank you so much for appealing, an excellent test for our systems. Delighted to have you back, delighted, so grateful. Residents' objections... no of course not, police, they're such a trouble.
 
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