SkyscraperCity banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
here is a proposal I've been working on for a Northern HSR linking the main Northern cities which would effectively merge them and make them very commutable, which would encourage growth. and with HS2 to London it would make the new 'Nothern Conurbation' very attractive to businesses. much like the Rhein Ruhr area in Germany. aswell as making the main airport serving the north of the country (MAN) more accesible to the Northern cities by rail.

Route/Link(Google Maps)

I dont know if the link is working to the google maps, so ive got some images here aswell as talkthoughs:

Whole Map-


Liverpool-


the main station would be in Liverpool in the Liverpool waters Development there for cause minimum distruption and make travel to the city center very easy as the monorail planned could transport people quickly to the city center, line would follow the mersey estuary which would mean the minor demolition of some housing nearer to John Lennon Int'l.


John Lennon Int'l-the station could be above or underground the carpark with a walkway to the terminal after the station the line would continue to follow the mersey cross near runcorn in a bridge the skirt around runcorn still following the mersey untill meeting the m56 at jct 10 a following untill manchester airport


Manchester Airport- the station would be underground near woodhouse park, the station would have and ULTRA system linking it to the CTA, the line would continue unground untill ascending near old trafford cricket ground and continueing by the MET and railway lines to manchester Victoria


Manchester Victoria would have a massive extension built on the old exchange site, a large station capable of accomodating trains from hs2 and the new northern HSR network, manchester would be the core of the network all trains would stop here.

the Line would continue above ground to hadfield but using the current corridors out of the city but with some demolition in droylsden to allow the line to continue to guide bridge then follow a realigned woodhead route to allow for higher speeds, this would be the most expensive part at the tunnels would have to be rebored and bridges and viaducts would have to be built.

South Yorksire triangle junction, this junction would allow trains to travel between Liverpool/Manchester and Leeds/Wakefield/Sheffield and trains to travel between Sheffield Wakefield and Leeds the line would follow the M1 and use the

Parkway Corridor into Sheffield (though this would but running mainly on HS2 which will probably follow the M1


and the Beeston Corridor into Leeds.


the station in sheffield would be at the old Victoria site with a tram extension to connect it to the city center


at leeds an extension would be built in the western carpark, with the new lines following the existing lines to the beeston corridor


the wakefield parkway station would be built at junction 40 of the M1, the a638 allows easy access to wakefield, ossett and dewsbury, making the station accesible to over 100,000 people.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105982349110269901077.000483e3440d74384accf&t=h&z=7

Journey Timesmethod of working

i have worked out some approximate journey times based on the average speed of trains travelling on the LGV EST in france the newest TGV line (173.6mph) i used the simple T=D/S formula so the journey times are very approximate. but here they areall journey times are calculated as Non-stop services:

Liverpool To...

Manchester Airport-18 minutes

Manchester Victoria-23 minutes

Wakefield Parkway-46 minutes

Leeds 50-minutes

Sheffield Victoria-50 minutes

Manchester To...

Wakefield Parkway-22 minutes

Sheffield Victoria-16 minutes

Liverpool John Lennon Int'l-18 minutes

Liverpool Waters-46 minutes


Leeds To...

Sheffield Victoria-19 minutes

Liverpool John Lennon Int'l-40 minutes

Liverpool Waters-50 minutes

Manchester Airport-32 minutes

Manchester Victoria-27 minutes

Sheffield Victoria To...

Liverpool John Lennon Int'l-40 minutes

Liverpool Waters-50 minutes

Manchester Airport-32 minutes

Manchester Victoria-27 minutes

Leeds-19 minutes

Wakefield Parkway-16 minutes

Wakefield Parkway To...

Sheffield Victoria-16 minutes

Liverpool John Lennon Int'l-42 minutes

Liverpool Waters-46 minutes

Manchester Airport-27 minutes

Manchester Victoria-22 minutes

Manchester Airport To...

Liverpool John Lennon Int'l-14 minutes

Liverpool Waters-18 minutes

Leeds-32 minutes

Wakefield Parkway-27 minutes

Sheffield Victoria-32 minutes

Liverpool John Lennon Int'l To...

Sheffield Victoria-40 minutes

Wakefield Parkway-42 minutes

Leeds-40 minutes

Manchester Airport-14 minutes

Manchester Victoria-18 minutes


possible journey times including stops...

all things considered: the possible journey time for a train from Leeds to Liver pool Via Manchester and Manchester Airport and Liverpool John Lennon Int'l could be 1 hour 5 minutes....with 3 stops. and less with just 1 stop in Manchester (55 minutes)

making travel between the cities very easy and quick, traveling between Liverpool and Leeds/Manchester and Sheffield and visa versa would be quicker than travelling from say Richmond to Bank/Monument at Peak time on the district Line which would effectively merge all the cities together.

land would be cheaper than in London with HS2 travel from the northern cities to London would be under 1hr30 mins which would encourage businesses, Telecommunications and government institutions to move out of London, like now the BBC are moving from white city to mediacity, whitehall is opening in Manchester, but even more so with the quick links to other northern cities.

Would also allow better accessibility to Manchester Airport which would take some strain off heathrow. as well as effectively merge Manchester and Liverpool Airports together. Liverpool John Lennon would effectively become Terminal 4 and runway 3 of Manchester Airport which would allow for more services to be run, Liverpool could become a mainly Longhaul Airport and Manchester become mainly shorthaul the airports could be renamed Manchester and/or Liverpool John Lennon International West and East. or just John lennon International West and East, or remain the same as they are.


basically what do you all think?

comments, dicussion and new/better ideas are welcome so i can keep on improving the route, any NAAONBs i dont know about or listed buildings or places bought for development.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,911 Posts
Mmm, if your having it join with HS2 at the airport then why not share tracks, run under Manchester like thats planned to do with an underground Pic station before emerging above ground again in the more rural less built up north of the county (just after Heaton Park) then head dead east from there (possibly along the M62 corridor?) through the pennines and you will reach the same point your line splits for Sheffield/Leeds (alternatley follow M62 corridor to just west of Huddersfield and have the line diverge there north and south of the town). Far cheaper through Manchester and less disruption to existing rail corridors which would still be needed for commuter services.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
i have looked at a line which travels next to the M62 http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=52.65956,-1.567931&spn=3.879116,9.876709&t=h&z=7

ignore the rest of the network, just look at the transpennine line, but across the pennines the terrain i west yorks is much more hilly and built up not to mention the construction would cause distruption to the m62, which is the only motorway accross the pennines. which counters the case for not using the woodhead route because its more built up..... tough call.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,257 Posts
I quite like the idea of going via John Lennon. I would recommend crossing the mersey in a tunnel - otherwise the bridge would have to be one of the largest ever, and nimbyism at Runcorn will hamper it otherwise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,556 Posts
I quite like the idea of going via John Lennon. I would recommend crossing the mersey in a tunnel - otherwise the bridge would have to be one of the largest ever, and nimbyism at Runcorn will hamper it otherwise.
I think with that route, the bridge would be the least of any NIMBY worries. :lol:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)


i drew an aternate mersey crossing, staying north of the mersey until cuerdly marsh, skirting north of hale and south of halebank continuing next to the existing Liverpool-Warrington Line and the a562/a568 road untill swooping south at cuerdly marsh and crossing the mersey in bridge or tunnel, the width of the mersey is much smaller and bisect the manor park warehouse estate and follow the daresbury expressway/b5356(daresbury road) past daresbury labs and then join the m56 near jct ten and follow to manchester airport.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,783 Posts
Watcher zero said


"Mmm, if your having it join with HS2 at the airport then why not share tracks, run under Manchester like thats planned to do with an underground Pic station before emerging above ground again in the more rural less built up north of the county (just after Heaton Park) "

Are you suggesting the Northern HSR runs under my house?!?!?

Hey only if I have a dedicated lift and tunnel.

Still feels the Northern HST will simply be a new track to Brum and then a doubling up of the WCML to Glasgow with spurs following the Stephenson Rocket line off to Lerpwl and Manchester. Perhaps a HST station at Ordsall, if a tunnel under Manchester city centre is deemed too expensive.

Now if I ever see this in my lifetime I'd be amazed. Through if another Icelandic volcano whips up, suddenly HS will become very attractive!!
 

·
cogito ergo sum
Joined
·
1,622 Posts
I'm confused.
I'm interested to know what the question is, which this proposal is answering.
To "make the new 'Nothern Conurbation' very attractive to businesses" just doesn't immediately present a High Speed rail question to me - sorry.
But I AM VERY interested. I'm sure that the Northern RDAs will be too.

Railways do three things quite well :-
- local commuting (the reach of the networks matter, more than speed),
- inter-city, inter-regional and international travel (where high-speed links and connectivity to other modes matter, more than penetration to localities), and
- freight (reaching local and regional distribution hubs, major customers such as ports and power stations).

So what is this "North of England" proposal trying to improve?
Stockton to Southport?
Wolverhampton to Wallsend?
Liverpool to Lancaster?
Hull to Harrogate?
Rotherham to Runcorn?
Wigan to Warrington?
Workington to Wakefield?
Accrington to Alston?
Blyth to Birkenhead?
Berwick to Bolton?
Harrogate to Hexham?
Hartlepool to Halton?
Preston to Pontefract?
Mansfield to Morpeth?
Macclesfield to Middlesbrough?
Newcastle to Middlesbrough?
Darlington to Penrith?
Alnwick to Chester?
York to Carlisle?
Congleton to Chesterfield?
Everywhere to their nearest airports?
Everywhere in the North of England to Ireland? (Eire and Northern Ireland)?
Everywhere in the North of England to Scotland (Borders, Lowlands and Highlands)?
Everywhere in the North of England to Wales, East Midlands, and West Midlands?

Please tell me what flows you are improving.
I will be happy to support yopur proposals when I can see what challenges they're trying to address. Thanks.
Some passenger numbers and/or freight volumes would be helpful. With or without costings.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
what do you mean whats it trying to improve?
its to decrease the gap between the cities bringing them closer together and make the journeys more commutable and appealing. aswell as make manchester airport more accesible which is the main airport for the region. which would make the cities more appealing to businesses and residents. more people would move to the area. journey times from manchester to leeds are 1 hour to 1 hour and a half for two citied 45 miles apart this means the trains average speed is less than 25mph which for an 'intercity service' is appauling. this proposal will improve this greatly.
 

·
INACTIVE
Joined
·
1,486 Posts
what do you mean whats it trying to improve?
its to decrease the gap between the cities bringing them closer together and make the journeys more commutable and appealing. aswell as make manchester airport more accesible which is the main airport for the region. which would make the cities more appealing to businesses and residents. more people would move to the area. journey times from manchester to leeds are 1 hour to 1 hour and a half for two citied 45 miles apart this means the trains average speed is less than 25mph which for an 'intercity service' is appauling. this proposal will improve this greatly.
A Northern HSR should also serve Newcastle, what with it being rather important and in the north. In which case, there would be also be Newcastle's airport to consider. Why cart air travellers all the way from Leeds to Manchester when Newcastle Airport also has international flights and is closer?

If you're trying to improve resource usage efficiency and reduce carbon footprints, the less distance people have to travel, the better. Trains are better than airplanes, but not by much: we still burn a lot of fossil fuels in the UK to make our electricity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30,359 Posts
A Northern HSR should also serve Newcastle, what with it being rather important and in the north. In which case, there would be also be Newcastle's airport to consider. Why cart air travellers all the way from Leeds to Manchester when Newcastle Airport also has international flights and is closer?
Leeds is closer to Manchester than Newcastle.
 

·
INACTIVE
Joined
·
1,486 Posts
Leeds is closer to Manchester than Newcastle.
Well, that'll teach me to look at maps without my glasses on.

Nevertheless, why terminate at Leeds? It's more of a "Northwest HSR" than a "Northern" one as it stands.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,257 Posts
AAA94 can confirm but I would generally assume that ultimately there will be a HSL from Leeds to Newcastle anyway, and that northern HSR would tie in to it. Indeed that is what I have done on my route.
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top