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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone - i'm a long time reader of this forum and have finally joined to contribute some ideas. As a long time reader and someone who is interested in watching how our built environment in Nottingham can be enhanced, thank you all for the very interesting threads and posts.

I thought it would be useful to crowd-source a new vision for Nottingham, given that the City, County and borough councils (collectively) seem to be absolutely lacking. Nottingham City Council is trying its best to deliver on a strategic vision of a regenerated Nottingham with new housing developments on the water-front, in Radford and Meadows. But whenever it attempts to take a wider Nottingham (or even East Midlands wide) approach it meets resistance from the county and borough councils.

Nottingham as a city has a lot going for it. It has incredible potential to have a distinctive differentiating identity as a city that can put it on the map nationally. It has two good universities, two football clubs, the trent bridge cricket ground, the Panthers Ice Hockey team. It has two large, good universities, three good theatres in the city centre, several comedy clubs, at least four decent cinemas (with a fourth on the way) and and innumerable restaurants. It has an expanding tram network and bus services that are the envy of many other cities. It has several large companies and economic strengths that it could build upon. I could go on... but I want us to use this thread to set out a positive vision for the city. :cheers:
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Over the next few days and weeks, I will contribute a couple of things that I think Nottingham has to do to remain relevant as a core-city in the future and at the very least to aspire to what cities like Birmingham, Manchester etc. have managed to do.

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The City of Derby-Nottingham
A high-tech manufacturing, biosciences and professional services hub for the East Midlands


The city is geographically and demographically well located to be the socio-economic Hub for the East Midlands region, but we just don't seem to have the ambition for it. Nottingham as a city needs to invest in marketing itself as a city. The old archaic boundaries have to go. We need one metropolitan council the covers the County, City and boroughs. This will instantly raise Nottingham's profile and attract more businesses and visitors. The current boundaries make Nottingham look small with a population that is presented as circa 300K. In reality the population of Nottingham's urban area is closer to 700K and its wider conurbation including Derby make it one of the largest urban areas in the UK.



It has to work closer with Derby given that we are only 15 miles apart. We could create a larger Derby-Nottingham city area and build on the land between to a limited extent to create a contiguous city called 'Derwen City', 'Robin-Hood City' or 'Trent City' (or more boringly Derby-Nottingham). Robin Hood city would really capture people's imagination. The population would be 1.1 million people with a significant economy based on high tech manufacturing, bio-sciences and professional services. Those who, quite legitimately, oppose building on the green belt could be appeased by creating a massive new nature reserve in the greenbelt between the two cities based around the rivers and canals in the areas. Think of this as the green heart of the new city region. This requires some ambition and 'blue sky thinking' but we have to be ambitious as a region if we are to keep up in the global economic race. :cheers:

What do you all think?
 

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I'm not too sure if I like the idea of derby and Nottingham merging to become a 'super city' but I do like the idea of expanding Nottingham and its boundaries.
In an ideal world the Broadmarsh would be an excellent full sized shopping centre (the area is going to be much improved anyway).

I'd love to see VC torn town, which would leave a massive hole in the city centre, enough room for some skyscrapers (at least 40-50 stories), a park and grade A office space, and some high end retail which would spread out the retail space in the city.
 

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Completely agree about the boundaries and the negative affect it has had and continues to have on Nottingham's image and reputation.

I'd like to see the County Council abolished and the number of councils in Notts reduced to four, each with unity status, centred around Mansfield, Newark, Nottingham and Worksop.

Unfortunately, the only political ambition in these parts is to keep the labour party in power in Nottingham and keep Nottingham out of Rushcliffe for the tories, so there is little prospect of boundary changes, imo.

Besides, I think the damage has already been done. In the consciousness of the nation (and sadly the consciousness of Nottingham folk), Nottingham is no longer a core or major city.

We'll still do good things and like you said, we have a lot to be very proud of.

But I doubt we'll ever shrug off that all too familiar feeling that 'we could do so much better'.
 

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New leadership and better schools would be a great start. Grow the talent and skills, make businesses want to come (rather than just offering subsidies and rate reductions).

Urban realm improvements would go down very well in improving perception, so squares/plazas, small parks, anything that is a pleasant place to spend time. These investments increase desirability and boost interest from retail and leisure operators.

Quality housing in inner-city areas is another target, though it's harder to have influence here as the vast majority of development is private-led.

Keep expanding cycling routes and lobby for tram extensions.

Support and help create investment, by making worthwhile initial investment, basically.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
New leadership and better schools would be a great start. Grow the talent and skills, make businesses want to come (rather than just offering subsidies and rate reductions).

Urban realm improvements would go down very well in improving perception, so squares/plazas, small parks, anything that is a pleasant place to spend time. These investments increase desirability and boost interest from retail and leisure operators.

Quality housing in inner-city areas is another target, though it's harder to have influence here as the vast majority of development is private-led.

Keep expanding cycling routes and lobby for tram extensions.

Support and help create investment, by making worthwhile initial investment, basically.
Some great suggestions there.

We need to start thinking about creating vibrant parts in different parts of the city - each with their own unique offering. At the moment there is probably West Bridgford and the city centres that are destinations in their own right. But places like Arnold, Beeston, Sherwood and even Meadows could be great places to live. We need to improve the town centres in these areas. This would make the city much more attractive place to live. Birmingham has lots of areas that are nice places to live and seem to have their own little ecosystem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I'm not too sure if I like the idea of derby and Nottingham merging to become a 'super city' but I do like the idea of expanding Nottingham and its boundaries.
In an ideal world the Broadmarsh would be an excellent full sized shopping centre (the area is going to be much improved anyway).
I think Derby and Nottingham HAVE to work together if they are going to remain relevant as cities. It's not really a matter of choice anymore. Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Bristol, Liverpool all these cities seem to be getting more and more ahead of Nottingham with every passing year.

One of the biggest weaknesses of Nottingham is its retail offering. It used to be great back in the day - before the financial crash of 2008. Broadmarsh was buzzing with with TK Max, BHS and lots of other stores. But now the best we can offer is the shabby VC (which is terrible) and Broadmarsh which looks like a former nuclear test site.

Such a shame we missed out on Highcross which went to Leicester and Intu which went to Derby. It was the biggest mistake to let Intu buy both VC and BM. It was a really anti-competitive decision that created a monopoly and killed off new large scale shopping developments in Nottingham for a generation.
 

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I think Derby and Nottingham HAVE to work together if they are going to remain relevant as cities. It's not really a matter of choice anymore. Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Bristol, Liverpool all these cities seem to be getting more and more ahead of Nottingham with every passing year.

One of the biggest weaknesses of Nottingham is its retail offering. It used to be great back in the day - before the financial crash of 2008. Broadmarsh was buzzing with with TK Max, BHS and lots of other stores. But now the best we can offer is the shabby VC (which is terrible) and Broadmarsh which looks like a former nuclear test site.

Such a shame we missed out on Highcross which went to Leicester and Intu which went to Derby. It was the biggest mistake to let Intu buy both VC and BM. It was a really anti-competitive decision that created a monopoly and killed off new large scale shopping developments in Nottingham for a generation.
Nottingham and Derby are working together ...

DERBY-NOTTINGHAM METRO BOARD HOLDS FIRST MEETING
23 Feb 2018

A board containing a number of the biggest businesses and organisations in Derby and Nottingham, aimed at helping create a new £11bn metro area for the two cities, has met for the first time.

The Derby-Nottingham Metro Growth Board comprises Boots, Rolls-Royce, Toyota, East Midlands Airport, Trent Barton and the Federation of Small Businesses, along with the universities of Derby, Nottingham and Nottingham Trent.

The advisory board for the initiative will develop its own ideas for boosting the economy. Its members also include the place marketing organisations Marketing Derby and Marketing NG, along with the leaders of the two city councils.

The project is being worked on in order to give the area an £11bn boost to the regional economy by 2030. The plan is also set to be showcased at property expo MIPIM next month.

The board is chaired by David Williams of law firm Geldards, which has offices in both Derby and Nottingham.

He said: "We’re in the midst of a technology revolution which is transforming many industries, and we have the challenge of Brexit ahead of us. We’re also in an era when we are seeing other UK city regions come together to do deals which will benefit their wider economies.

"The Derby-Nottingham Metro initiative is an important response to that, and one we’re here to support.

"But the Growth Board is also something else – a recognition that we need to go beyond business as usual and meet the challenges we face head on by creating an ambitious vision of the future.

"We fully support projects like HS2 and believe that the two city councils should aim for better connectivity and better shared services. But we’re also a critical friend with our own ideas about ways in which the metro economy needs to do better."

The board’s initial meeting identified a number of priority areas which will form the foundations for a series of proposals for action in the coming months.

They are likely to centre on using technology such as smartphone apps to make it easier for people to travel in and around the two cities, making the most of opportunities for growth around HS2 and East Midlands Airport, investing in the latest digital networks, and ensuring the education system helps students develop the skills of the future.
https://www.insidermedia.com/insider/midlands/derby-nottingham-metro-board-holds-first-meeting
 

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Eventually, they will merge. It's just bound to happen -there's no doubt. This isn't even unique to these two cities; it's going to happen in many others (Bristol-Bath, Southampton-Portsmouth, Cheltenham-Gloucester, Leeds-Bradford, etc.) and has already happened, or it's beginning to, in many cases (Newcastle-Sunderland, Sheffield-Rotherham, Birmingham-Wolverhampton-all the towns in between, Stoke, Bournemouth-Poole-Christchurch, Brighton-Hove, etc.). Of course, the D2N2 partnership (awful name by the way) can help speed up the process, as will the Toton HS2 hub. I think the key project that D2N2 should strive for is extending the tram network to Derby. I lived in an area wherebthere was a similar case. It was in Germany, which is light years ahead of virtually any other country in terms of public transport, so it's probably a good model to follow. In Mannheim-Heidelberg, two cities comparable to Nottingham and Derby in terms of size, and separated by a similar distance, there is a circular tram route that connects both cities as well as the towns and villages in between. Here, it would be fantastic to extend the Toton line to Long Eaton-Breaston-Borrowash all the way to the Southeast of Derby, to then cross Derby City Centre and then back to Nottingham through Northeast Derby-West Hallam-Ilkeston-Kimberley and then connect with the current network at Phoenix Park. It doesn't have to follow those routes, but you get the idea. The southern stretch could even be built further to the South via EMA, which would actually be a pretty big improvement in terms of international connectivity for both cities.

This would all be very expensive but, also, sick.
 

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To be considered a core city, Nottingham has to act like a core city.

That is abandon it's archaic historic boundaries and create a political entity that has the size and power to deliver a large modern city that acts and looks like a large modern city.

Alas, I think this opportunity has now gone.

The most important thing for me now is for Nottingham to emerge as a medium sized modern sustainable city that has a feel that reflects it's rich history and past. Essentially, we need to dismantle our 60/70's legacy and invest in smaller, medium sized modern developments that enhance but do not overshadow our old historical building stock.

We obviously already have the rich historical heritage and a large number of wonderful buildings that reflect that.

On the sustainability front, we're well on the way, with a good integrated public transport system including the trams and the largest electric bus fleet in Europe. We're also one of the least car dependent city's in the UK.

We also have 2 of the most sustainable universities in the world.

That just leaves the mostly awful 60/70's legacy that has unfortunately come to define us.

The Victoria Centre / Broadmarsh Centre / Maid Marion Way need to be dismantled or redeveloped in a way which negates the negative and overpowering feel they have on the city.

It'll be interesting to see how the Broadmarsh saga plays out.
 

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It's not like me to be negative, but I did want to put a few thoughts across. It does feel like Nottingham is falling further and further behind. I went to the Playhouse last weekend to see "Wonderland", a play set at the former Welbeck Colliery in the Miners' Strike of 84-85. It was brilliant- really funny and poignant. The Playhouse is a real gem.

The negatives come when considering other aspects of the city centre, such as parking and infrastructure. I like to be reasonably close to the Playhouse when visiting, so normally park in Mount St, which was closed apart from to "season ticket" holders only, thanks to the whopping great big chunk of concrete that shedded off, potentially flattening anyone below. That left St James street. You've got all on manoeuvring up the ramp without touching the sides, and I only drive a medium sized hatchback. Many of the spaces inside are unusable due to their size and being obstructed by pillars.

Manage to get a space and take to the stairwell, with the familiar scent of urine. After descending a few floors, the woman in front momentarily pauses as we come across a sleeping homeless guy camped up in the stairwell (this is not at dig at the homeless whatsoever, I don't blame him at all, just an observation at the sorry state of affairs). We step over him and exit, onto our way.

Come back and I find that I've just ticked over the 3hr park and am stung for £12. The barriers are stuck down for a good ten minutes, before NCP wake up and remotely enable them (car park is unmanned, obviously to save costs). I breathe in and squeeze out the comically tight exit ramps.

The city centre's suite of infrastructure just doesn't seem befitting of a decent sized city. Normally if I'm visiting the shops I use Trinity Square, which is actually a decent car park- pretty spacious, and well priced. It's also very handy.

Even the A610 coming in has speed bumps on it, which is crazy for an arterial route. I fully understand the wish to make the centre less appealing for driving, but placing obstacles in the way of a mode of transport isn't the way to do it (many roads in the actual centre are far more geared for vehicles than the A610 is).

When I last previously popped down in the day, I noticed a shabbiness of some of the city centre, particularly Clumber Street and some of Parliment St. The lack of investment is becoming more apparent. I've just been looking at Liverpool with a view to possibly make a visit, and although it's not fair to compare Liverpool and Nottingham on the tourism offer, the investment levels seem night and day.

The hotel offer is different league (understandable I guess), just not in selection, but in modernity and quality. Public realm is much better, particularly the waterfront. Shopping is up there. The place doesn't have very strong business metrics, but this must be compensated for to some degree in the public and private investment elsewhere. We're still faffing around with our castle and a third-rate shopping centre.

I'm sorry to have one foot in the doom-mongers camp, but I seriously think that alarm bells should be ringing bright and clear at Council HQ, and for anyone with a stake or interest in a vibrant, prosperous and competitive Nottingham.

Here's hoping change is afoot.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Derby-Nottingham Tram & Road Network

Creating a well connected city region, to foster regional economic growth, investment and innovation

What does everyone think about reviving the Derby-Nottingham tram line and creating a 3rd lane on the A52?

It was proposed a couple of years ago as part of the HS2 development programmes.

It would connect Nottingham city centre with Derby city centre through a continuous tram line that intersects with the HS2 station at Toton. The A52 would also have three lanes and junctions to ease congestion. Both these investments make it easier to commute between different suburbs of the two cities and create a larger pool of workers for employers in both cities.


 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Derby-Nottingham Nature Reserve: The Green Heart of England

A world class nature reserve and an international ecotourism destination

If Derby and Nottingham had the political will, they could create a massive new country park and nature reserve between the two city centres. The green belt land around and north of Erewash could be a good location, giving easy access to both city centres, Wollaton Park, the rivers, Sherwood Forest and the Peak District.

It could be marketed internationally as the 'Green Heart of England', given it's location being bang in the middle of England. The councils could develop cycle lane paths with Tourism visitor centres and hotels at key locations. It would be a great way to put the Derby-Nottingham city region on the map as a British ecotourism and city-break destination.

More ambitiously, it could also be marketed as an activity-filled, family friendly, packaged holiday as part of a wider Derby-Nottingham ecotourism and city-break offering. Key activities and destinations would include walking, mountaineering and climbing in the Peak District. Visiting Sherwood Forest and Wollaton Park. Boat trips at the canals and pub crawls along the Nottingham Waterfront. Canoeing on the river fronts and water rafting at Holme Pierrepoint, Victoria Embankment. And also market Nottingham's night life as part of the appeal.


 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Nottingham Trent Embankment - An Innovation Masterplan





A unique urban riverside, creating a new Midlands leisure Mecca

Nottingham's waterfront has so much potential, that is currently under-appreciated and not at all utilised or marketed as much as it should or could be. Think of how cities like Oxford and Cambridge make use of their water fronts. Nottingham has so much potential that is untapped and there is much more that could be done to develop an urban riverside and beach culture.

I am thinking of the Victoria Embankment, which is one of the nicest water side green spaces that I have seen... and I have visited most large cities (in fact I can't think of any in). Yet it is lacking in leisure facilities and services and the Council seems intent on building on every available plot of waterside, rather than making them common spaces available for the enjoyment of all of Nottinghamshire's population.



The Nottingham Summer Riviera

  • The river itself should be open for the public to enjoy. The council should encourage local businesses to incubate a comprehensive leisure offering, including canoeing and boating facilities.

    There should be cafes, badminton and tennis courts, and cricket pitches on some of the empty field space.



    Sand could be placed along parts of the waterside during the summer, as is done is some other European cities, to create a real Urban breach. It should be lined with restaurants, bars and maybe even clubs (towards the side that faces Riverside Way). Think of sunbathing, reggae music and ice cold Piña Coladas.

    A handful of 'infinity' style swimming pools could be installed along the rivers, with access available for a fee.

    The Waterside Festival



The Nottingham Winter Riverside Wonderland

  • A German style, winter themed, Christmas Market along the embankment river, offering mulled wine, continental treats and hot chocolate.

    An infinity style ice rink, at the edge of the river.

    Winter boat trips along the river

    I can't think of any more but there must be other opportunities

 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Nottingham Canalside Masterplan



A unique urban riverside


I am also thinking of the Canalside which at the moment only seems to be fully appreciated and utilised in a small segment - around the Canalhouse bar. The Magistrates court, the old coroner's court, the family court and buildings on station street are obviously not leisure/restaurant/drinking establishments so offer no opportunity to enjoy the waterside at all.

As far as I am concerned the organisations that occupy these buildings should vacate them and move into or build properties in Southside/East side areas.

Instead of Offices, the canal waterfront should be lined with restaurants, bars, clubs, pubs and other retail/leisure offerings, from London road to the old evening post building.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Nottingham Trent Riveria: a unique urban waterfront



A premier new leisure destination for The Midlands


Nottingham Embankment and the Trent riverside as a whole has so much potential and is currently immensely under-appreciated and under-utilised. It's a real gem in Nottingham's crown and there are few other large cities that have riversides like ours. It's time we realise its full potential and make it a destination in it's own right - not just somewhere to visit when the Riverside Festival is on. With some planning, a little investment and copying and pasting strategy from other European cities, Nottingham Riveria (as I ambitiously like the call it) could be a reall attraction not just for the city but the whole region.

We should focus on ensuring that there are activities, facilities and events for people to attend throughout the year, so as to make Nottingham a destination in its own right. It will also attract new employers if Nottingham becomes an even nicer, better and more enjoyable place to live.

We can do this by breaking the proposition into two distinct parts as I will explain further below.

Nottingham Trent Rivieria: The Midlands Summer Party & Leisure Destination


  • The council should focus on ensuring there are adequate facilities, not just bare green fields. I am thinking of 3 x badminton, 3 x tennis, 3 x cricket and 3x (five a side) football pitches on the part of the Embankment that is closest to The Meadows. Other activities could include rock climbing installations, mini go karting tracks etc.This will still leave ample open green space for football. These could be available to rent through the council's leisure services and would bring in some income into the council's coffers.



    The second part should be encourage the development of restaurant, cafe's, bars, clubs along the waterside. I am thinking of the side facing the retail park/Riverside Way which is furthest away from the residential areas and is closest to the Tram stop. Obviously it goes without saying that this should be controlled, measured development taking into account noise effects etc.



    The council could spread sand along the embankment to make it into an Urban Beach and install . This is done in cities like Berlin, Copenhagen, Paris, Brussels to name a few. And it really works very well indeed. Think of sitting there sunbathing, with a reggae music, Pina Coladas and scantily clad Nottingham babes (lol). The council could charge a fee and generate income.


    Another thing we could copy from cities like Vienna is 'infinity' style pools jutting into the river trent. In the winter these could be replaced by ice rinks. Would be amazing and offer something different to leisure centres. Again the council could charge a fee and generate income.



    The Nottingham Riverside Winter Wonderland. Think of ice rinks, christmas markets, hot chocolate whilst taking a walk along the riverside, taking in views of the river and the embankment.



 

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All great ideas, I just worry that the reality is that for all the UK's undoubted wealth, it isn't well reflected outside of London and a few pockets, mainly linked directly to the London economy. Thus it is harder to get investment, private or public, whether in the form of loans, or new business, let alone from local authorities.

This probably needs to come in the form of action from Westminster, not only in the form of government funding (of which more will need to be done as a direct replacement for the EU funding) but in terms of policy and strategy. The expansion of Heathrow for example is seen as a boost to the London (and therefore UK) economy, but it could be argued it is at the expense of the regions, drawing more investment to the capital.
The train and road networks are London-centric, with at times sub-standard connectivity between regions.
It goes without saying that the cultural, sporting, political, financial institutions and infrastructure is too London focused.

All of this in part explains where we are.

As for a tram route between Derby and Nottingham. I'm all in favour, but it needs to be part of a wider metropolitan transport network strategy, with consideration of different types of rapid and commuter rail, all usable on a unified ticketing system.


Take a look at this table showing the disparity between the wealthiest region in the UK and not only the poorest, but the rest of the UK. They are also shown within a European context.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis..._of_the_EU-28_average,_EU-28_=_100)_RYB17.png
 

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A city with tons and tons of potential just sitting there, waiting to be realised. Smashing transport network, excellent river park area and beautiful main square.

Easily my favourite city on the eastern side of the country - hopefully all of the ideas in this thread will come into being in the future as well as many more

:cheers:
 

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Some great and grand ideas there....not sure about the specifics of the Derby-Nottingham tram line but in principal I like it. I love the green belt/nature reserve idea but really not sure how it could work. Pushing to give over much of this space to tourism is an interesting one, I hadn't thought of that before.
 

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Over the next few days and weeks, I will contribute a couple of things that I think Nottingham has to do to remain relevant as a core-city in the future and at the very least to aspire to what cities like Birmingham, Manchester etc. have managed to do.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The City of Derby-Nottingham
A high-tech manufacturing, biosciences and professional services hub for the East Midlands


The city is geographically and demographically well located to be the socio-economic Hub for the East Midlands region, but we just don't seem to have the ambition for it. Nottingham as a city needs to invest in marketing itself as a city. The old archaic boundaries have to go. We need one metropolitan council the covers the County, City and boroughs. This will instantly raise Nottingham's profile and attract more businesses and visitors. The current boundaries make Nottingham look small with a population that is presented as circa 300K. In reality the population of Nottingham's urban area is closer to 700K and its wider conurbation including Derby make it one of the largest urban areas in the UK.



It has to work closer with Derby given that we are only 15 miles apart. We could create a larger Derby-Nottingham city area and build on the land between to a limited extent to create a contiguous city called 'Derwen City', 'Robin-Hood City' or 'Trent City' (or more boringly Derby-Nottingham). Robin Hood city would really capture people's imagination. The population would be 1.1 million people with a significant economy based on high tech manufacturing, bio-sciences and professional services. Those who, quite legitimately, oppose building on the green belt could be appeased by creating a massive new nature reserve in the greenbelt between the two cities based around the rivers and canals in the areas. Think of this as the green heart of the new city region. This requires some ambition and 'blue sky thinking' but we have to be ambitious as a region if we are to keep up in the global economic race. :cheers:

What do you all think?
i think you are confused as to what a city is as what you are describing is more like a MEGALOPOLIS, although this can sometimes be referred to as a 'super-city'


though to be fair, nottingham and derby coming together as one would make a very small MEGALOPOLIS and would hardly be described as a supercity


i actually have no idea what a megalopolis is, it just came up on google


and good luck to you for getting the people of nottingham and derby to drop the names of theirs cities (even though nottingham is, to be fair, a horrible name)


but please rename nottingham - robin hood city - cos then that would officially be the stupidest thing i have ever heard, the guy didnt even exist. then again, while were in the realms of fantasy and make-believe (im reffering to the post im responding to), i wouldnt mind living in a fairytale city - can i be a wizard please? then again with my ears and how they stick out, i'll probably have to be an elf - no, an imp... cos they are a little bit mischevious - then again, i seem to be good at trolling, so maybe a troll would be a good choice for me
you could even build a yellow brick road and forest could win the premier league - oh no wait its fantasy not the impossible and ridiculous!


and no i dont hate nottingham, i love the place - just a stupid name is all (obviously not as stupid as robin hood city)


we love you derby-nottingham we do - just hasnt got any kind of ring to it at all but its far better than we love you robin hood city we do haha

have you got any more great ideas? and telling me to **** off cant be one of them
 
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