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WOULD YOU SUPPORT A PARTITIONING? (if yes, state which side you'd live in, Lebanon or Hezbollastan)

  • YES for partitioning

    Votes: 3 17.6%
  • NO for partitioning

    Votes: 14 82.4%

Partitioning of Lebanon - FOR or AGAINST?

1195 Views 22 Replies 13 Participants Last post by  Beiruti
Lebanon's Partition may be a good interim solution

Charles Jalkh - 8/31/2007

The formal partition of Lebanon into two states; a multi-ethnic Christian-Sunni-Druze democratic and liberal state, and a Shiite fundamentalist state is a good thing for the following reasons:

1. Each side will finally achieve its national and cultural aspirations. After a 30 years of Syrian-Iranian occupation and indoctrination, the Lebanese Shiites have been virtually lost, their identity erased and rebuilt as an Iranian group in spirit, economics, culture, and self government. While the rest of the Lebanese who form a majority still maintain their authentic Lebanese colors and yearnings. We Lebanese, will get our long awaited peace and stability and move forward to rebuild our nation, make peace with Israel and shield ourselves from its retaliations.

Hezbollah will get its wishes by creating its Islamic state and can continue to wage its futile wars against whomever it wishes without dragging us all behind its evil madness. We cannot force nor convince the Hezbollah crowd to fake loyalty to Lebanon, and at the same time, it is unfair to impose them on us as citizens of our nation. The US doctrine of never ceding territory to terrorism does not apply in this case, since Hezbollah already controls the territory.

2. Syria will be satisfied since it has always rejected "Le Grand Liban" starting in 1920. It would gain an official foothold and influence on "former" Lebanese territory to continue its proxy wars. Iran should also be pleased to formalize its Lebanese colony and continue to have its revolutionary guard division named Hezbollah on Israel's border.

3. Israel should be pleased, since the presence of a new Free Lebanon state will mean peace and commerce, and the presence of a radical Hezbollah state means the justification of its continuing occupation of the Golan or future Hezbollah-state land.

4. The World community would benefit by stabilizing a good part of Lebanon after failing to stabilize the whole. The lesson of Iraq, is that it is better to rely on smaller, strongly allied and either ethnically or ideologically homogenous states then on a weak central government with theoretical claim over the totality of the country but effectively a limited control on the ground.

The scenario of a Lebanese federated state, as an alternative to complete partition is also unfeasible. A federated state assumes a minimal agreement over the central government Defense, Foreign, and Economic policies. We are in strong disagreement over all these areas. "Our" Lebanese want to end the state of wars, make peace with our neighbors, and join the global community in peace, progress, and under international law. Hezbollah wants to build an ideological state, maintain the state of war, and prepare its masses for the return of its "Mehdi".

So it is not really a catastrophe to divvy up Lebanon. Former Yugoslavia is much better today divided then united. Also, the argument that Lebanon is too tiny to be divided into viable nations does not fly. Luxemburg is one forth the size of Lebanon and it is thriving. Bermuda is a 30 kilometer long and 5 kilometers wide island paradise with the highest per capita income in the world. Hong Kong thrived in its tiny spot. Greek Cyprus is doing quite well despite its division. We can do it too. Let the sword slice the land and not the people. Chances are, that Hezbollah's new state will end up either like lawless Gaza, or Turkish Cyprus, recognized by no one in the world except the 2 members of the axis of evil Syria and Iran.

While our Free Lebanon state will again become, the Switzerland of the Middle East!
The only losers would be the Lebanese citizens whose homes will fall on the wrong side of a new border. Yet, partition can, and should be done, in a peaceful manner as Czechoslovakia did it, and need not be violent. Compromises on both sides will be required. Hezbollah would need to abandon all presence near the capital, such as the "Southern Suburbs", on the other hand, some Sunni-Druze-Christian villages in the Bekaa will end up in Hezbollastan. The army can also be peacefully divided and its members join any side they desire.

It is better to have a 35,000 member modernly equipped army that truly defends us, then a 70,000 member army that stays neutral in fear of divisions. It can be done amicably, and without drama, without a single bullet fired nor any drop of blood spilled. If we do it through a war, we will end up anyway with the same demarcation lines that we could have reached in peace. So why not do it peacefully.


The Partition of Lebanon is already a reality that simply awaits and needs to be recognized. Hezbollah has erected its own state since 1982, maintains an independent army, its own sources of finances and economic structures, runs its own foreign policy, manages its own social services, pays no taxes while consuming centrally funded services, owns TV stations and newspapers, and has even just finished creating its own independent telephone network. All is left, as Prime Minister Saniora stated yesterday is, for Hezbollah to hire a musician to compose its new national anthem, and perhaps print its own currency. Our army seems unable, or unwilling to disarm it. Israel has failed to defeat it, and the world seems unable, at least at this stage, to deal with its patrons Syria and Iran. So, it seems like a reasonable interim solution for us Lebanese to "officially" accept reality, that we need to disengage from Hezbollah for our own survival, as the threat of massive destruction resulting from Israeli retaliations is still very real. Perhaps in a generation or two, we may conduct negotiations for reunification, and perhaps not. In the meanwhile, and until these Middle East issues are resolved, we will finally achieve our own national aspirations.

We have waited a century for this Christian-Sunni-Druze allegiance to Lebanon, we cannot wait another century in wars and tribulations, for the Shiites to join us.

by Charles Jalkh
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I voted NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
U can't do it,Koz it's not Sunnis against Shias,it's 14 march against 8 March
This is sort of confusing, because what would happen to all the Christian-Sunni-Druze and moderate shiite of the South and Bekaa? There are many cities like Jezzine, Rmeich, Saida that could easily be considered within the areas in which fall in the south, and places like Zahleh in the bekaa and it wouldnt be fair for these cities to be included in Hizballahstan, whilst if they were excluded the Hizb may request the Shiite in the chouf and places like Jbeil to be considered part of their territory! I think Lebanon is way tooo mixed ethnically from North to South for this to be something reasonable, unless of coarse each Qada was responsible for its own governance, and it was made illegal for leaders of other qadas to become involved in the next hence Jezzine would be under its own control, Tyre under its own, Jbeil unders its own and etc, but would that be economically efficient?:nuts:
May i ask ? :) Who voted "yes", just wanna know why . :)

And like Hassoun said its it's 14 march against 8 March! Not sunnis vs shittes'!
And if i understood it right, they will spilt the country more! So i have a friend in Trablous, and if i wanna visit him i will have to go to another "state", when i got fam. in south? I'm lost. I think its stupid :)

ONE GREAT PEOPLE - ONE GREAT COUNTRY - ONE GREAT LEBANON!
Plus if the Bekaa and South turn into a "Shiite State"(wtf?) what about Christian and Sunni and Shiite(anti-Hizbollah)minorities in the Bekaa and South ,good riddance?not enough Lebanese by your standards?
^^ Technically not doable
yea, one thing i didnt like about charles jalkh's article is the way he excluded all the shia from the rest. what i think he should've proposed was splitting lebanon into pro-government (ie:pro-lebanon) and pro-hezbollah (anti-lebanon).
well i was one of the ones who voted FOR the partition. not because i want to lose parts of the country, but because i want to live in peace among law-abiding citizens who all share the same ambition: that is to develop the country, rebuild, turn it to a paradise where everyone can enjoy what we are so lucky to have, and yet havnt because of the ongoing political conflict. the country, accept it or not, IS split, unofficialy, and as jalkh said, there is absolutely no point spending the rest of our lives trying to unite a people that do not want to unite. hezbollah virtually created their own state, so why deny them what they want(and what they will eventually take by force)? its true there will be villages in the bekaa and the south that belong to pro-government, pro-lebanon citizens, but there are also villages and towns in beirut and the north that belong to shias, yet this is the compromise that some people will have to take(they can either hold on to their property or move into whichever side they desire), however in the end, think of a country thats economically succesful, and thriving (give lebanon one year of peace, just one year, and watch it crawl back to its former glory, thats guaranteed), where people can work and develop and join the international community again. lebanon suffered alot from the 75 war, most of have moved on , yet hezbollah and their supporters are still playing the game, they do not care, at all, about a prosperous lebanon. it's better we propose a partition now, before hezbollah completely take over the entire length of lebanon, exiling all those who oppose them.
just lebanese yea, i know i too have distant family outside the would-be demarcation line. and i know, if they were given a choice they would move into new-lebanon and start a new life, abandoning their homes in hezbollastan. the quality of life we lebanese have at the moment is ridiculous. the economy is crippled, our gdp is not much better than any of the underdeveloped countries (perhaps due to the fact, that we, sadly, are underdeveloped and are being stopped from developing due to the political differences), law is unexistent, the government is highly sectarian, and not fully democratic and so on so forth.
Lebanon before the french came consisted of the mountains and the city only, i think gen.gourauds' decision to claim more land from the bekaa was a mistake that has forced onto us angry citizens that reject the law and cause what we are seeing today.
i only want peace, democracy, freedom, and economic success. . . so far, i dont see any of those happening, any time soon.
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i cant believe theres actually a thread for this !!!!!
well i was one of the ones who voted FOR the partition.
U dare to call other people traitors and non-lebanese, but u have no problem to see ur country split into pieces because of political differences? Tell me, do u honestly believe the problems will be gone then? It's not as easy as u might think. What are u going to suggest if there are still people who have major differences in the new "modern and openminded" Lebanon? Partition it once again?
^^very good point!!
NO NO NEVER!!!
Lebanon can never be but whole Lebanon... with it's difference, lays it's beauty.
Lebanon is Pigeon's rock and Baalbak's temple of the sun
It's Gibran Khalil Gibran and Hasan Kamel Al-Sabbah
Lebanon is about a national spirit to listen to Fairouz in the morning, to pass red lights, and to welcome strangers to our homes!
Those are the things that unite us regardless of religion and ethnicity.
God forbid if Lebanon ever partitioned, it'll become a tasteless and flavorless bunch of people calling themselves a nation.


Still....
What would be left of that "beauty" if another round of a 15-year civil war ever happened! (it already started after the 2006 summer war)
The Lebanese people haven’t yet figured a way to co-exist and put the best interest of their Lebanon first!
So what's the point?
If my view to my country and how it should be, is different than those of a neighbor and he'd be willing to shoot at me if I ever threatened "his" Lebanon!
What's to aspire for?
I guarantee you it's gonna be a loooooooong time before Lebanon stop following outsiders based on religion and focus on what is best for Lebanon!
and Iran, USA, Syria, Israel, France ... are sticking around for a while!

YES! why not partition? At least for the time being...
My hard disk has been running as smoothly as ever since I partitioned it!

March 8 would occupy the south and Bekaa (what was historically part of Syria), they would run it however they want and Aoun would finally fulfills his dream of the presidency (if they let him have it)
and March 14 would have Mount Lebanon, the North, an extension to Zahle and Saida with the democratic and Liberal system that we already have the infrastructure for!

If it's to be compared to anything it wouldn't be Yugoslavia but North and South Korea.
You have a pro-western pro-business south Korea and a North one controlled by a fundamentalist communist regime, they wage their wars and try to get their hands on WMDs however they like...

But still! There are families divided as a result of N and S Korea! They speak the same language!
They're still the Korean peninsula sharing hundreds of years of traditions and history...



I couldn't choose, I could never decide!
The national patriot Rabih can think of a million reason to say NO while the Devil's advocate Rabih will always find a way to logically wear him down
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U dare to call other people traitors and non-lebanese, but u have no problem to see ur country split into pieces because of political differences? Tell me, do u honestly believe the problems will be gone then? It's not as easy as u might think. What are u going to suggest if there are still people who have major differences in the new "modern and openminded" Lebanon? Partition it once again?
its not the political differences that are the reason i want a partition. its the fact that there are people out there who have already virtually created their nation, and are unwilling to call themselves lebanese. people who pay no taxes, people who dont follow the law, people who have their own public facilities, their own army, their own media, own flag, and who dont allow the law to cross into their "territory". political differences are normal in any nation. but its when one side of the game, used weapons to force onto the others what they want, instead of using political means to achieve it, that giving them their own land will solve the problem. yes after a partition there obviously will be political differences, but those people are law-abiding and will use civilized means to achieve what they aspire.
i think keeping those people among us is treason to lebanon, and not the other way round. keeping those people among us IS destroying our country, or whats left of it. i want a partition because no matter how much smaller our country will be, i know that the real lebanese will work on what they have and turn that into a paradise; while the other side will continue doing what they have been doing, only this time, they wont be dragging us behind with them.
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The people do get along very very well ,i don't blame those who voted yes for it because, only the real tolerant people and those who had experienced the beauty of coexistence , would absolutely oppose this suggestion.

My best friend is Shiite, eventhough he likes hezbollah so what, is this a reson to divide our country ?!
its not the political differences that are the reason i want a partition. its the fact that there are people out there who have already virtually created their nation, and are unwilling to call themselves lebanese. people who pay no taxes, people who dont follow the law, people who have their own public facilities, their own army, their own media, own flag, and who dont allow the law to cross into their "territory". political differences are normal in any nation. but its when one side of the game, used weapons to force onto the others what they want, instead of using political means to achieve it, that giving them their own land will solve the problem. yes after a partition there obviously will be political differences, but those people are law-abiding and will use civilized means to achieve what they aspire.
i think keeping those people among us is treason to lebanon, and not the other way round. keeping those people among us IS destroying our country, or whats left of it. i want a partition because no matter how much smaller our country will be, i know that the real lebanese will work on what they have and turn that into a paradise; while the other side will continue doing what they have been doing, only this time, they wont be dragging us behind with them.


U have some valid points but, don't u think giving them a sovereign country will strengthen them even more? What if their ambitions go beyond having an own islamic state? Since they've got a stronger army they could easily try to take all of Lebanon. Weapon shipments and all that stuff could get there a lot easier since they are sovereign by then. On top of that, Iran and Syria might well try to have their own military bases there. How do u like that?
March 8 would occupy the south and Bekaa (what was historically part of Syria), they would run it however they want and Aoun would finally fulfills his dream of the presidency (if they let him have it)
and March 14 would have Mount Lebanon, the North, an extension to Zahle and Saida with the democratic and Liberal system that we already have the infrastructure for!
true, yea i thought that's a better and more logical way to have it, i didnt like charles jalk's proposal to completely separate the shias from the rest, seeing as not all shias are pro-hezbollah, and would certainly choose to abide by the new-lebanon law.
as for the n.s korea example, yes lebanon is very similar. with a partition, families will be split, even though the culture and historical traditions will still remain on both sides. a more developed idea based on charles jalk and your proposals is: perhaps having a Great Lebanon, with 2 states within: both sharing the same currency, and open borders for citizens from both sides to move freely. yet each side will have its own desired politics and laws. separated families will not be separated, and the patriotic citizens of lebanon opposing the idea will still have the same original boundaries.

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most people will think its a bad idea, seeing as lebanon is already quite small. but, what will be left of such a beautiful country after more fighting and perhaps even a new war. what's the point of having such a country when tourists are not visiting it, and its citizens are immigrating? when its economy is crippled, and people are living in fear of those who dont agree with them?
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Partitioning country on political criteria is stupid. The only stable parts would be those ruled by authoritarian government, but those democratically ruled would fall into parts again and again, as the only thing you can be sure about is the fact that people differ in their opinions and will always make different parties and fractions.
The problem of Lebanon is not having many political fractions (there are hundreds of countries with much more political parties), but having many autonomous structures of administration (official one, HZ, Palestinian camps etc.). Lebanon is already not one, but few countries, and every time when they clash together, we have impression of seeing something unusual and ignited from abroad. You cannot have "a whole Lebanon" for every one party (and separate one for Hezbollah of course :nuts:). Make separate region of Lebanon for Hezbollah and you will see exporting of their people/ideas/weapon to other parts of it (just like Hamas exporting its terror to Western Bank, not looking too far).
Laying the blame on others (honestly, the only flags I saw on streets of Beirut were the Nazi flags of SCNP and maybe flags of Baath, and not Israeli) will never resolve the real problems which are internal. But of course those believing that partitioning would solve all the problems cannot believe in outside intervention (Syria-Israel conspiracy and such fairy tales), as partitioning wouldn't help in such case at all.

At least it's how I see it. I'm not insider (in term of place of living or personal relations), so of course my PoV must be different from yours.
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U have some valid points but,
1--- don't u think giving them a sovereign country will strengthen them even more?
2--- What if their ambitions go beyond having an own islamic state? Since they've got a stronger army they could easily try to take all of Lebanon.
3---Weapon shipments and all that stuff could get there a lot easier since they are sovereign by then.
4--- On top of that, Iran and Syria might well try to have their own military bases there. How do u like that?
1--- they're already very strong militarily, giving them a sovereign state will give them the freedom to create their own political system and laws, thus making them stronger politically. yet this will also ease their frustration of having to live under a government they do not agree with nor recognize.

2---their army is already so much stronger than the lebanese army, and if they feel like it, they can and (maybe someday will) take all lebanon by force any day. whether they're in lebanon, or in hezbollastan. the only difference is that if they do create their own state, the lebanese army will probably be given a choice on whose side to join. the pro-hezbollah soldiers will join the other side, while we will finally have a united defense force that will truly defend its people.

3---weapons shipment is already easy for them. the airport is controlled by them, the border between lebanon and syria is not guarded and thus there's probably a constant stream of weapons filling their stocks, so to answer the question, their own state will not make weapons shipment any easier than it already is.

4---iran and syria will not have bases in hezbollastan mainly due to the fact that they deny any help coming from them. hezbollah is already their proxy army. all iran and syria will do is continue weapons shipment untill they are ready once again to launch a war on israel.
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