Pendolinos - Good or Bad?

7728 Views 45 Replies 24 Participants Last post by BiggerisBetter, May 17, 2008

Tim Robinson

Discussion Starter · May 8, 2008

I used a Virgin Pendolino for the first time this weekend taking a train from Liverpool to Crewe. I'd been looking forward to using the tilting trains for a while and decided to hang around in Liverpool an extra 30 mins so that I could travel on one.

Overall, I found it very disappointing, especially from the perspective of passenger comfort.

The tapered shape of the carriages (providing more room outside the train for the tilt action) means there is a serious lack of seating space. I was sat next to the window and just felt incredibly frustrated by the lack of elbow room on the window side. I kept feeling the urge to sort of elbow the wall in frustration as it was right up against me. I have quite a slim build and yet I found myself flowing over the centre arm rest and into what would have been somebody elses personal space (luckily there was nobody sat next to me.) I was only sat down for 20 mins, and even with nobody sat next to me, I felt hemmed in and uncomfortable.

What if my jounrey had been for 2 hours, and I'd had somebody next to me? What if that person had been fat or very stocky, indeed, what if I were also built this way? I'm surprised there haven't been widespread complaints because the level of comfort is frankly appalling. The seats and space are designed for children. It's a step backwards. The non-tilting predecessors (Mk3 coaches, but also modern EMUs using the same route) provide far more room. The modern EMUs seem to go just as fast as well.

I was also disappointed by the shabbiness of the interiors. They aren't that old and yet the cheesey white plastic on the backs of seats is already covered in pen and dirt. The whole lot seems to have that typical, modern air of not having been built to last.

These trains look the part, and they may have the potential to be the fastest trains this route has seen, but from the point of view of the paying passenger they are just very disappointing.

1 - 20 of 46 Posts

Leeds No.1

· #2 · May 8, 2008

Well perhaps a bit of both. I don't like to vote that- I feel it's a bit of a sitting on the fence conclusion. But speed is quite a major factor, so if it's brought the WCML to 140mph then that's good. But at the cost of passenger experience? Perhaps not. I'm glad I primarily use the ECML.

Save

Irish Blood English Heart

· #3 · May 8, 2008

I think theyre alright though could do with lengthening, they are a bit tight inside but no where near as bad as voyagers.

Accura4Matalan

· #4 · May 8, 2008

Its all Boris' fault

hno:

Leeds No.1

· #5 · May 8, 2008

Voyagers are really bumpy I find; not smooth at all. On GNER (or NXEC now) you don't even notice when the train starts moving. Completely different on Virgin Trains.

Republica

· #6 · May 8, 2008

All trains are crap compared to the old HST ones. I dont uderstand how we can go backwards! Having said that the trans pennine trains are pretty decent - but diesel so sound like buses. Electrification really makes a huge difference to your journey.

cle

· #7 · May 8, 2008

The small windows are due to the need to tilt, can't quite remember the physics explanation now, rather than a deliberate design decision which turned out to be a bad one.

And Crewe - Liverpool isn't really the best journey to experience the full 125 Pendo experience. I find the tilting best between Watford and Rugby.

Vince Noir

· #8 · May 8, 2008

As someone who regularly travels from Manchester to London for work, I've racked up a fair few miles on Pendo's (albeit only in standard class).

They may be more cramped inside (I'm sure Virgin would say 'cosy') but they are still perfectly comfortable over a two hour journey. I will happily put up with small windows for a train that can get me home from London in the shortest possible time!

Parkey

· #9 · May 8, 2008

cle said:
The small windows are due to the need to tilt, can't quite remember the physics explanation now, rather than a deliberate design decision which turned out to be a bad one.

Sorry but they're not. The APT had very large windows, as do Mk4 carriages, which were designed to be retro-fitted to tilt.

The Pendolino has small windows because it's easier to make a train more crashworthy cheaply by making the windows smaller.

I still think that the Mk4 carriage was the pinnacle of carriage design. Since then we've seen windows and luggage racks getting smaller, seats getting harder, and more and more seats being installed with no view out of a window.

Tim Robinson

Discussion Starter · #10 · May 8, 2008

Parkey said:
I still think that the Mk4 carriage was the pinnacle of carriage design. Since then we've seen windows and luggage racks getting smaller, seats getting harder, and more and more seats being installed with no view out of a window.

Precisely. Things have gone down hill since the Mk4s. Why is it that I can take a National Express along the ECML, and have plenty of seat space to shuffle my backside about on, but on the Pendolinos there is just enough room for me to fit on the seat?

The Pendolinos have smaller windows, but numerous seats don't have a window at all! And this only adds to the misery as the person next to the window (assuming there is one) is crammed into a claustrophobic space, where there is zero elbow room. I imagine there are daily disputes over the central arm rest.

Imagine being crammed into one of these seats without a window. The wall tapering in and cramming you in even more, and having a fat bully next to you who insists on taking the arm rest. Frankly, I'd sooner stand!

Leeds No.1

· #11 · May 8, 2008

I don't mind HSTs but they're diesel. 225s as used on the ECML are the best train on Britain's railways I think; basically electrified 125s. Transpennine have good trains for their constraints, but electrification is desperately needed on this route.

Where did the old Virgin HSTs go?

Mostly Lurking

· #12 · May 8, 2008

Tim Robinson said:
What if my jounrey had been for 2 hours, and I'd had somebody next to me? What if that person had been fat or very stocky, indeed, what if I were also built this way? I'm surprised there haven't been widespread complaints because the level of comfort is frankly appalling. The seats and space are designed for children. It's a step backwards. The non-tilting predecessors (Mk3 coaches, but also modern EMUs using the same route) provide far more room. The modern EMUs seem to go just as fast as well.

I find them perfectly fine and comfortable for longer journeys. Of course no train design can please everyone - people who dislike them as much as you are definetly the exception rather than the norm. You said you were only sat down for 20 minutes too any particular reason as it is a 40 minute journey?

Sorry to be pedantic, but they ARE modern EMU's so you can't compare like that

Also, Liverpool to Crewe isn't going to get upto much speed to show off what they can achieve, nor do they tilt Liverpool to Crewe.

Tim Robinson

Discussion Starter · #13 · May 8, 2008

Mostly Lurking said:
I find them perfectly fine and comfortable for longer journeys. Of course no train design can please everyone - people who dislike them as much as you are definetly the exception rather than the norm. You said you were only sat down for 20 minutes too any particular reason as it is a 40 minute journey?

Sorry to be pedantic, but they ARE modern EMU's so you can't compare like that Also, Liverpool to Crewe isn't going to get upto much speed to show off what they can achieve, nor do they tilt Liverpool to Crewe.

I don't think I am the exception. Most normal people like to be able to move their elbows about a bit when they are sat down for a while. It is downright claustrophobic to sit with a wall/window right up against you.

Why was I sat down for only 20 mins? Why, I thought it would be obvious - because sitting down was too cramped and uncomfortable; I preferred standing in the doorway vestibules.

Yes, you got me. They are modern EMUs. But I am not comparing like for like. Whether or not there is a locomotive pulling the stock, or whether it is diesel or electric, is of little significance in this discussion. What I meant to say, to clarify, is that the class 350s used on the WCML are a far more comfortable and enjoyable ride. They fly along at high speed where the pendolino seemed to stroll. The 350s have a more classy and roomy environment, rather than the cramped and cheesey (reds, blues and whites) nature of the Pendolinos.

I would go as far as to say that the 350s are better than anything on the West or East Coast Mainlines for those needing high speed travel. They are comfortable, roomy, air conditioned, and have a pleasant and high quality decor.

Boards

· #14 · May 8, 2008

I only travel 1st class if I get the train and I found the actual service excellent - free food and drink, we're talking bevvy here, got through four meals and a six pack ( can get spirits too though ) on my last journey to London - bloody brilliant, got my moneys worth as what I ate and drank must have cost more than ticket ( had to check I was in the UK for a minute though as the ticket price coupled with the freebies actually seemed reasonable value ). Only weekdays though I think. Prefer the first class on the ECML though, bit roomier and a little more tasteful decor, doesn't mean much coming from me though, arf.

Mostly Lurking

· #15 · May 8, 2008

Tim Robinson said:
I don't think I am the exception. Most normal people like to be able to move their elbows about a bit when they are sat down for a while. It is downright claustrophobic to sit with a wall/window right up against you.

Why was I sat down for only 20 mins? Why, I thought it would be obvious - because sitting down was too cramped and uncomfortable; I preferred standing in the doorway vestibules.

Yes, you got me. They are modern EMUs. But I am not comparing like for like. Whether or not there is a locomotive pulling the stock, or whether it is diesel or electric, is of little significance in this discussion. What I meant to say, to clarify, is that the class 350s used on the WCML are a far more comfortable and enjoyable ride. They fly along at high speed where the pendolino seemed to stroll. The 350s have a more classy and roomy environment, rather than the cramped and cheesey (reds, blues and whites) nature of the Pendolinos.

I would go as far as to say that the 350s are better than anything on the West or East Coast Mainlines for those needing high speed travel. They are comfortable, roomy, air conditioned, and have a pleasant and high quality decor.

Most 'normal' people do not dislike them as much as you appear to. Anyone who decides that standing near the door between the carriages by the toilet is preferable to sitting down in a seat would not be defined as 'normal' by myself.

It was not at all obvious - you say it was your first trip on one, so you may of decided to go for a walk through the train, or gone to the shop and had to queue etc. No need to try and be clever.

I'm not quite sure where you get your 350 'flys along' and your Pendolino 'strolls' from, as everyone knows which is faster.

Although 350s are good units (as are most of the Desiro family), personally, from Liverpool, I would prefer to catch the 10.15 Pendolino to Euston (2 hours 33 mins, to be 2 hours 9 mins come Decemeber) rather than the 10.19 350 to Euston (2 hours 59 minutes). Before you comment, I know it is not comparing like for like as the 350 has more stops, my point is that there is a choice if you really want to travel Liverpool to London on a 350.

blahblah

· #16 · May 8, 2008

Mostly Lurking said:
Anyone who decides that standing near the door between the carriages by the toilet is preferable to sitting down in a seat would not be defined as 'normal' by myself.

That's exactly what happened the last time we went on a Pendolino (Brum New St. To London Euston) We had to pick up additional passengers from an earlier train which had broken down at Rugby. Everyone was asked to take suitcases and bags from seats and expect the train to get full. The train staff did a good job of getting just about everyone into seats except for 3 people; Firstly, one girl who was travelling with a large group, and didn't want to be split from them. So, she sat on the armrest all the way to London.

The remaining couple, an elderly couple were demanding that the people in "their" seats be moved. "We've booked coach B, seats 22 A&B!" The train manager offered them a free 1st class upgrade and they refused! Prefering to stand by the toilets scowling at everyone who needed get past to use the loo.

I made a point of ringing Virgin's customer services to tell them about the incident to back up the train manager and his crew who I thought did a good job given they had this dropped on them. Definately not a legitemate complaint!

Apparently, the train which broke down wasn't even a Virgin service?!

As for the train. Well, It was Pendolino there, and old Intercity carriages pulled by an EWS Electric thingemybob on the way back.

Absolutely no comparrison between the two. The Pendolino was more comfortable, smoother, had aircon which worked, and was a full 45 minutes faster over the same line which included an unscheduled stop at Rugby to pick up the other passengers!

gothicform

· #17 · May 8, 2008

wow. i took the ecml a few weeks ago and the service before had been cancelled. they had declassified first class. i had to stand all the way home despite having a first class ticket with a seat booked. given i was drunk at the time and hadnt slept the previous night the journey was close to torture. a ticket refund does not compensate me for 90 minutes of total utter inconvenience.

iampuking

· #18 · May 8, 2008

The Pendolinos are shit. Dark, cramped, too few toilets, hard seats, not enough space for luggage...

Mostly Lurking

· #19 · May 8, 2008

gothicform said:
wow. i took the ecml a few weeks ago and the service before had been cancelled. they had declassified first class. i had to stand all the way home despite having a first class ticket with a seat booked. given i was drunk at the time and hadnt slept the previous night the journey was close to torture. a ticket refund does not compensate me for 90 minutes of total utter inconvenience.

Yes it does - you travelled for free. Or am I missing something?

maccoinnich

· #20 · May 8, 2008

Boards said:
I only travel 1st class if I get the train and I found the actual service excellent - free food and drink, we're talking bevvy here, got through four meals and a six pack ( can get spirits too though ) on my last journey to London - bloody brilliant, got my moneys worth as what I ate and drank must have cost more than ticket ( had to check I was in the UK for a minute though as the ticket price coupled with the freebies actually seemed reasonable value ). Only weekdays though I think. Prefer the first class on the ECML though, bit roomier and a little more tasteful decor, doesn't mean much coming from me though, arf.

I've been distinctly unimpressed with First Class in Britain. Never done it on Virgin (because I'm mean with money), but did it on the old GNER a few times at weekends when work was paying for it. Yes, there's a bit more room, and they give you tea and coffee, but it still didn't seem a patch on the ICE in Germany, which I had the pleasure of riding a few months ago.

ScotRail first class is a joke. I wouldn't pay a penny extra for that.

1 - 20 of 46 Posts

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