SkyscraperCity banner
1 - 20 of 101 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,870 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How about this for population density,Was this a world record?



The Irish Potato famine
toxteth.net > history > irish famine

In the years leading up to the great Irish famine the pre-famine population of Liverpool is estimated at around 250,000. Liverpool's prosperity and dock trade meant that the population was already growing quickly, in the ten years, between 1831 and 1841, it had risen by some 43%. Even before the mass immigration of the 1840’s large numbers of Irish people had been coming to Liverpool. As early as 1819 the numbers of Irish immigrants were high enough for there to be both Orange and Green riots in the city. Gores's records "Riot, caused by the procession of an Orange Society, who were attacked and put to flight by the Irish, July 12."

Emigration was already gathering pace as people left Ireland - by 1845 1.5 million had left. In September of 1845 a fungal infection of potato leaves in Ireland set into motion a series of events which were to shape the history not only of Ireland, but of Europe and North America. The failure of the Irish potato crop in 1845 & 1846 resulted in a quarter of the Irish population emigrating within 10 years. The events are well documented elsewhere, however it is the events in Liverpool which concern us here, as well as the eventual effect that the influx of population into Liverpool, eventually came to have on Toxteth.


The numbers involved are difficult to imagine but a review of the number of incoming Irish paupers was ordered by the magistrate, Edward Ruston in December 1846. The results of the survey published in the Liverpool Courier on June 16, 1847 revealed "that between the 13th day of January and the 13th day of December 1847, both days inclusive, 296,231 persons landed in this port from Ireland."

If you compare that to the then existing population (about 250,000) it is no surprise that the city was simply overwhelmed. The northern sections, around Scotland and Vauxhall wards, were the areas where these immigrants first settled. As the cheap housing and lodging houses became full, then they moved into cellars and abandoned properties. Poor housing, poor nutrition and cramped, crowded conditions were ideal for the spread of disease. Louse-borne Typhus and dysentery epidemics resulted, TB was rife. There were a horrifying 142,000 people to each square mile - the average life expectancy was just 17 years.

This was just the first wave and few cities can rival the population overload experienced by Liverpool from 1841 to 1851 when, the population jumped 286,000 to 376,000. This was almost entirely due to the influx of Irish refugees. As has been mentioned above, a large number settled in the North End of Liverpool close to the docks where they had arrived. The proportion of Irish born residents in this area was so high that the area was referred to as "Little Ireland." The density of the population in this area at that time is difficult to comprehend. Do stop for a moment, take a breath and ponder this:-



In 1841, when the average population density for England and Wales was 275 per square mile.
The density in Little Ireland was calculated to be equivalent to 657,963 per square mile.
That is the same as putting one and a half times the entire 2002 population of Liverpool into one square mile.
(Official Liverpool City Council population figure for 2002 is
441,477)


On June 21, 1847, in an attempt to provide some help for Liverpool, the government passed new laws allowing local authorities to deport homeless Irish back to Ireland. Within a very short time the first immigrants were herded onto boats for return to Dublin and Cork, where they were simply abandoned on the docks. One estimate suggests that 15,000 Irish were sent home this way during the rest of 1847.

By the autumn of 1847 the influx of immigrants into Liverpool had subsided and the pressures both on housing and sanitation began to ease. (Attempts by immigrants to enter at other ports meant that Glasgow used similar laws in an attempt to control overcrowding and fever). Further outbreaks of typhus did still occur in Liverpool however. The large influx had created other problems for Liverpool. In 1849 some 23,000 children were said to be running wild in the dockland area.

As well as a destination, Liverpool was also a port of transit. Many Irish people travelled on to America in search of better prospects. In the hundred years from 1830 to 1930, 9 million emigrants sailed from Liverpool to America. In the early 1840s almost 1000 ships a year, with up to 200,000 emigrants, left Liverpool for America. Each emigrant had to pass a "medical examination" before sailing. At the peak of emigration, 3000 per day went through this process. 1847 was an especially bad year for emigrants with 17,465 - that is 1 in 6 - dying on their way to North America.

By 1851 over 20% of Liverpool's population was estimated to be Irish.

There was a second wave of Irish immigration into Liverpool but this time in a reverse ditrection. By 1855 emigration was falling off, Ireland was no longer starving. Wages in England had risen but unemployment had started to become a problem in America. In fact so significant were these factors that in 1854 and 1855 a total of 30,000 unemployed immigrants sailed back from America to Liverpool.


By 1880 Liverpool’s population exceeded 600,000.

This massive influx of people into Liverpool and the subsequent terrible housing conditions that they endured meant that there was a great need for new housing, in new areas. This need coincided with the development and expansion of Toxteth. It is notable from my own family tree that all of Irish ancestors appeared first of all in Vauxhall and Scotland wards, and then migrated towrads Toxteth from the 1860s onwards as this was built up. Perhaps yours are the same.


Found this on a fascinating site about Toxteth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,412 Posts
Sounds like Liverpool was effectively a giant refugee camp in the 1840s, and a hell-hole. Nowadays Bob Geldoff would do a great big Liverpool Aid concert for the city. "Give them the fucking money. Now!" I don't know enough about my family history, but I believe on my mums side they moved straight to Kensington, and on my Dad's side straight to Toxteth, but I don't know if they started further north in the city and them moved south.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,293 Posts
"that between the 13th day of January and the 13th day of December 1847, both days inclusive, 296,231 persons landed in this port from Ireland."

Many of these people would not stay permanently in Liverpool. Many went inland to Manchester, Preston, etc.

As it says, after the influx, 20% of people were Irish in Liverpool, only 20%. Most of the UK thinks Liverpool is a part of Ireland on the UK mainland. This is not true. The Welsh influence is far stronger, reflecting in the accent. Toxteth had 1/3 of its churches Welsh of some degree with many of the streets having Welsh names (the Welsh streets as they are called). Wales is hop skip and a jump away. The Welsh were good builders, far better than the locals of the time, and moved in to build many of the houses.

After the Irish famine influx, the population of Liverpool rose dramatically as world trade increased – the dock estate expanded greatly. Immigration was from just about everywhere after that. The Scandinavian and Dutch influence is vastly understated in Liverpool – Scouse (Lobscouse) is a Scandinavian dish.

There was a second wave of Irish immigration, although tiny to the the 1840s influx, and that was just after WW1 when the Irish rebellion started. People came in to get away from the fighting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,980 Posts
I'd say that's bollocks re the accent John (I agree the Welsh influence as a whole is massive however). It's a hybrid of all sorts but modern 'scouse' especially is more and more north end influenced, the softer South end accent is being buried by the Irish influenced Scotty Road twang. In fact I'd say the Liverpool Irish influence has hit North Wales over the last 30 years or so. Ironic eh?

Those levels of density must have been unbearable, no wonder Doctor Duncan had his work cut out. It's amazing now when you look at Islington, St James St, Netherfield Road, Everton Park, Scotland Road, Vauxhall etc and the deserts that the planners created to think of the ants nest or beehive environment that once existed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,251 Posts
Not forgetting a large number of Scottish people (my grandad for instance!) and even some Ulstermen and Manxman who settled here. Thats why Liverpool is easily the most celtic city in England. But i would say there are a lot more Irish surnames than Welsh ones (though numerous) in the area today espically here in Bootle. :cheers:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,293 Posts
paulmac35 said:
Not forgetting a large number of Scottish people (my grandad for instance!) and even some Ulstermen and Manxman who settled here. Thats why Liverpool is easily the most celtic city in England. But i would say there are a lot more Irish surnames than Welsh ones (though numerous) in the area today espically here in Bootle. :cheers:
The south end has a more Welsh influence. The Liverpool accent is to rise at the end of a sentence - as do the Welsh. The north end accent was harsher and more grating.

I would say Glasgow beats Liverpool by a mile being the Celtic capital of the UK - it also has far more people of Irish decent too, while Liverpool is far more mixed. I would say Cardiff must have more Celtic people than Liverpool, but Liverpool more than any other in England, although the Irish influence in Manchester and the east and south of London is very strong indeed and vastly understated. Even today half the people on the Wirral are of Scandinavian origin, going on DNA samples. The Wirral was a Viking stronghold. They mixed in too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,821 Posts
[B said:
Toadboy[/B]]I'd say that's bollocks re the accent John (I agree the Welsh influence as a whole is massive however). It's a hybrid of all sorts but modern 'scouse' especially is more and more north end influenced, the softer South end accent is being buried by the Irish influenced Scotty Road twang. In fact I'd say the Liverpool Irish influence has hit North Wales over the last 30 years or so. Ironic eh?
I think the picture is even more complicated! My own family is largely Lancastrian with Celtic, African, Chinese, New York City twists. I live near a transitional space (Aigburth Road) in terms of accent and the 'North End' accent is far from ascendant. Like most working class scousers, I exaggerate my accent in certain situations, e.g. when meeting new people in town, people from outside the city. I often visit family in Aigburth and their accents, to my ears, appear to be changing. 'All right?' has long gone. It's now 'Hi' (Not even Hiya!). If any of me cousins have mates around their accent, again, seems different. Still, recognisably scouse but the influence of social class is kicking in! Maybe I'm wrong about this but the North end (until you get to Crosby) seems much more homogenous than the 'South End'. The temptation might be to assume that everyone in Liverpool speaks like that. They don't. This city is loathe to explore the class divisions that divide it. Middle class Liverpool is almost invisible in the city's popular imagination. Think 'scouser' - not many people think doctor, professor, lawyer, headmaster,etc. Why don't such people exist in the popular imagination.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,293 Posts
Toadboy said:
the softer South end accent is being buried by the Irish influenced Scotty Road twang. In fact I'd say the Liverpool Irish influence has hit North Wales over the last 30 years or so. Ironic eh?
I used to hear of these Liverpool/Irish on the TV. I thought they were a strange breed of Irish people living somewhere in Liverpool wearing green clothes that I had never met. Then I found out there was no such thing.

The great thing about Liverpoool is that people brand themselves as Liverpudlians (note Liverpudlian not "Scouser") no matter where their family came from: Irish, Welsh, English, Chinese, Jewish Eastern European, black, Scandinavian, etc. If you were born in Liverpool that is your identity, and they all freely adopted it and were not too interested in what went before, which grew within a pretty short time to create one of the strongest identities and sub cultures, of any people in the UK.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,980 Posts
That'll explain the numerous Sinn Fein politicians that have represented communities over generations then.

Spot on Liverpool 8, although I would say there is a tendancy, especially further out to be scouser than scouser - very harsh and cutting, lacking the old school harmonious south end accents quality. The title of this thread "Population Density" probably influenced the spread of accent in the north more than the more suburban south (after Ullet Road anyway), so South Liverpool ended up with slight differences that could be picked up by a trained ear.

Now it's television and social climbing that influences as much as proximatey to your neighbours etc.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,293 Posts
Toadboy said:
I would say there is a tendancy, especially further out to be scouser than scouser - very harsh and cutting, lacking the old school harmonious south end accents quality.
The Beatles were all south enders. In 1963 just as the Beatles were becoming big in the UK, not the USA, the BBC did a 1/2 hour documentary on them in black and white. I remember them filming it as they were encouraging kids to run after this car in the street. They interviewed each one of the Beatles separately with a dressing room mirror surrounded by light bulbs in the background. Their accents were not the grating one we hear today – far from it. Ringo came from the middle of Liverpool 8 and was pretty well spoken. They also came over as quite bright too. But that is not the enduring image of Liverpudlians. Not the one they want to see.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,816 Posts
John-MK said:
"that between the 13th day of January and the 13th day of December 1847, both days inclusive, 296,231 persons landed in this port from Ireland."

Many of these people would not stay permanently in Liverpool. Many went inland to Manchester, Preston, etc.

As it says, after the influx, 20% of people were Irish in Liverpool, only 20%. Most of the UK thinks Liverpool is a part of Ireland on the UK mainland. This is not true. The Welsh influence is far stronger, reflecting in the accent. Toxteth had 1/3 of its churches Welsh of some degree with many of the streets having Welsh names (the Welsh streets as they are called). Wales is hop skip and a jump away. The Welsh were good builders, far better than the locals of the time, and moved in to build many of the houses.

After the Irish famine influx, the population of Liverpool rose dramatically as world trade increased – the dock estate expanded greatly. Immigration was from just about everywhere after that. The Scandinavian and Dutch influence is vastly understated in Liverpool – Scouse (Lobscouse) is a Scandinavian dish.

There was a second wave of Irish immigration, although tiny to the the 1840s influx, and that was just after WW1 when the Irish rebellion started. People came in to get away from the fighting.
That 20% figure is Irish born, not Irish descent.The Irish influence is much stronger than the Welsh.If you include Ulster people, which is quite often overlooked the Irish population would account for over half the population.Glasgow had the highest population density in Europe,in 1900,200,000, people lived in one square mile,mainly centred on the Gorbals,Liverpool's highest density was 100,000,in the Scotland rd/vauxhall rd area.That is highest recorded density.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,352 Posts
The Irish influence on Liverpool's accent can still, today, be seen in not to few Irish expressions that are still in use in Liverpool but not in Ireland. For example; "wet the tea" is still a much used Liverpoool expression which has fell into disuse in Ireland. The "Scouse" pronounciation of "Dublin" "Djhubl'n" is the same as Dubliners pronounciation of thier home city. Jeh'rid/Gerard, Pierre'red/Pier Head, buke/book, meself/myself, me maa'rin'daar/my mum & dad, etc. are all pronounced very similar to that of Dublin. In fact "Scouse" owes more to Dublin, 160 miles across the sea than to Manchester just 30 miles up the highway.

The Victorian, Liverpool born and raised British Prime Minister, William Ewart Gladstone, spoke with a accent which was very close to a Mancunian accent. In his day the pressure of the Irish refugee influx into Liverpool was being manifested in the local speech which became "Scouse".
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,293 Posts
the golden vision said:
That 20% figure is Irish born, not Irish descent.The Irish influence is much stronger than the Welsh.If you include Ulster people, which is quite often overlooked the Irish population would account for over half the population.
I disagree. You are speaking myth.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,293 Posts
sloyne said:
The Irish influence on Liverpool's accent can still, today, be seen in not to few Irish expressions that are still in use in Liverpool but not in Ireland. For example; "wet the tea" is still a much used Liverpoool expression which has fell into disuse in Ireland.
I have never heard of it.

The "Scouse" pronounciation of "Dublin" "Djhubl'n" is the same as Dubliners pronounciation of thier home city. Jeh'rid/Gerard, Pierre'red/Pier Head, buke/book, meself/myself, me maa'rin'daar/my mum & dad, etc. are all pronounced very similar to that of Dublin. In fact "Scouse" owes more to Dublin, 160 miles across the sea than to Manchester just 30 miles up the highway.
The Irish of couse have an influence in the accent. But to say Irish influence is prominent and overrides all else is ludicrous. Lancashire can still be heard in the accent too. The Welsh in naselly twangs and rising at the end of th sentence.

The Victorian, Liverpool born and raised British Prime Minister, William Ewart Gladstone, spoke with a accent which was very close to a Mancunian accent. In his day the pressure of the Irish refugee influx into Liverpool was being manifested in the local speech which became "Scouse".
Scouse is a derogatory sneer word and I do not like it at all - came from Alf Garnet on TV with "Scaarse Git". There is no such thing as "Scouse".

In San Fransico, they correct people when they say Frisco. They will not tolerate nicknames and I admire them for doing so - we should take a leaf from their book.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,821 Posts
sloyne said:
The Victorian, Liverpool born and raised British Prime Minister, William Ewart Gladstone, spoke with a accent which was very close to a Mancunian accent. In his day the pressure of the Irish refugee influx into Liverpool was being manifested in the local speech which became "Scouse".
Presumably he spoke with a Lancastrian accent which would have been the dominant accent in the city at the time. Are there any recordings of his voice? I think he died in 1898.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,816 Posts
What are you disputing.You're claiming the Welsh have a stronger influence in Liverpool, fantasy. By the way i find it a bit odd you've never heard of "Liverpool Irish"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,352 Posts
John-MK said:
I have never heard of it.
Lived a sheltered life perhaps?



John-MK said:
But to say Irish influence is prominent and overrides all else is ludicrous.
Your opinion, .I never said that

John-MK said:
Lancashire can still be heard in the accent too. The Welsh in naselly twangs and rising at the end of th sentence.
No argument here, the above can also be read in the book "The Story of English" by Robert McNeil.



John-MK said:
Scouse is a derogatory sneer word and I do not like it at all
Not so and, you will have to come to terms with the word.


John-MK said:
came from Alf Garnet on TV with "Scaarse Git". There is no such thing as "Scouse".
Ludicrous statement.

John-MK said:
In San Fransico, they correct people when they say Frisco. They will not tolerate nicknames and I admire them for doing so - we should take a leaf from their book.
And Cariocas are very proud of their nick-name as are most Scousers.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,293 Posts
the golden vision said:
What are you disputing.You're claiming the Welsh have a stronger influence in Liverpool, fantasy. By the way i find it a bit odd you've never heard of "Liverpool Irish"
I would say the Welsh do have a stronger influence in the city, and certainly in the accent. They never made a song and dance about themselves, as the Irish do, and blended in. The Welsh influence in Toxteth is super strong.

I had heard of these Liverpool/Irish but had never met one. They are made out to be some sort of sub race in Liverpool, while no such thing exists. There are many people of partly Irish decent, but it doesn't mean they are Liverpool/Irish, as they have no direct connection with Ireland. Last year we found out one strain of our family came from Cork during the famine – a sister did some looking while most of us couldn’t care where we came from. We have no connection with Ireland in any way shape or form; nor Wales, the Lake District, Lancashire or Shropshire either – all were we originated from in the early to mid 1800s. I think we have some Dutch and Scandinavian there too.
 
1 - 20 of 101 Posts
Top