SkyscraperCity Forum banner
1 - 20 of 513 Posts

1,221 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Not a high speed proposal at all, so far as I can tell; more a fuller version of the Northern Hub - essentially just reviving schemds for four-tracking through the Standedge Tunnels (and predumably from Guide Bridge to Gorton).

But no new lines into Leeds and Manc, and hence everything at classic gauge and current standard mainline speeds.
So a "head of steam" building for at least a discussion about this idea, and in the tradition of SSC: why not?

Nerd probably rightly translates the flannel as not necessarily "high-speed", but perhaps we forummers can flesh things out for Messers Osborn & Leese?

I for one am still concerned that many higher echelons of Labour seem (oddly) always less keen on major transport infrastructure ideas than the others so any spotlight we can put upon Balls (that sounds wrong) to raise the bar, the better.

Maybe also use this thread for "fantasy" other future ideas? How about: Belfast/Tunnel/Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds/Hull/Tunnel/Amsterdam/Berlin etc! :lol:

ADMINS: Feel free to delete thread and keep all in main HS thread if you like, but just thought it might make an interesting subset for us to mull ideas over?

630 Posts
I for one am still concerned that many higher echelons of Labour seem (oddly) always less keen on major transport infrastructure ideas than the others so any spotlight we can put upon Balls (that sounds wrong) to raise the bar, the better.

That's my gut feeling too. It would be very good indeed if one side effect of this was to build up sufficient consensus that whoever gets in next, we could be reasonably sure of significant improvements to rail travel between Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Hull.

Nice up North
376 Posts
One thing that puzzles me is which station in Manchester would the proposed HS3 use? If it is Piccadilly then the units will have to go via the viaduct (which is fairly constrained I would of thought) for future connections to Liverpool and presumably would require a flyover to take traffic away from the Piccadilly throat. Even then the HS3 services would be on the opposite side of the station to the proposed HS2 services. Locating the service at Victoria would make more sense for Liverpool -> Leeds services but this would mean no direct connection to HS2 in Manchester, so not very joined up.

I know all that is being discussed is Manchester -> Leeds at the moment and therefore these additional services could be accommodated in the proposed extension to Piccadilly Station (possibly via the addition of a couple of platform faces).

Another option I guess would be a link to Liverpool via the Airport but that still requires the driver to change ends in Piccadilly.

8,480 Posts
So a "head of steam" building for at least a discussion about this idea, and in the tradition of SSC:

Sorry Mark come back in a decades time and the only "Head of Steam" uniting Manchester and Yorkshire will be drunken legions of party revelers from the 1543 from Victoria at Huddersfield.

I am cynical. Is there an election abound?

Been here before.

Not once but twice, Metrolink trams in the 97 and 01 Labour Party manifestos.

A sweaty Rosie Winterton declaring the Northern Hub at Piccadilly station in the election that never came in 2007.

And oh whip me Lord, did Ruth Kelly speak of reviving a cross city rail tunnel, before signing off Croosrail and this city's and this forum's biggest £h!t storm in the Congestion Charge vote.

Been here before.

65,207 Posts
John delivers a knockout punch before creaming off as much as he could via tax payers, during his political career.

Never mind HS3, how much did that wall paper cost per roll, John?

I know, why don't we re-name it HS3JAGS, in John's honour?

1,471 Posts
From the MEN Business

HS3 verdict: What the experts say
24 June 2014 05:45 AM By Alex Bell

Following yesterday's visit to MOSI by PM David Cameron, the M.E.N spoke to several experts from different sectors about HS3

Prime Minister David Cameron with Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne as they host a roundtable meeting with business and LEP representatives at MOSI in Manchester
HS3 is a Leeds to Manchester rail link that Chancellor George Osborne says will link northern cities and create an economic powerhouse to rival London.

KPMG's Richard Threlfall thinks HS3 could rebalance UK economy.

The partner and UK head of infrastructure, building and construction at KPMG, has welcomed the scheme and compares it to the build of the M25 and the Channel Tunnel.

He said: "HS3 has the potential to spread our economic wealth across the country and can be compared to bold and visionary schemes such as the M25 and the Channel Tunnel.

"Yesterday's announcement recognises that a massive intervention by government is needed to reverse the drain of the UK's economy from the north to the south.

"Over the last 10 years, according to ONS data, the north's share of the UK's economic output has fallen by more than five per cent.

"This trend will continue unless we strive to share our country’s economic success beyond the south east.

"HS3 recognises the dismal state of links between the UK's northern cities today. It takes about the same time to reach Liverpool from Leeds as it does to get to London from Leeds, even though it is less than half the distance.”

Prime Minister David Cameron and Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne talk to workers as they tour building works at Manchester's Victoria Station yesterday
Jonathan Holt, senior partner at KPMG in Manchester, said billions of pounds more have been invested in the south rather than the north for far too long.

He added: "The UK currently invests as much in infrastructure in London in two days as it invests in Manchester in a year. HS3 should finally turn the tide and help the north regain its historic prominence in the UK economy.

"HS3 is the missing link to create a true high speed rail network in the UK.

"It should run between our major port cities of Liverpool and Hull, and connect up Manchester, Bradford, Leeds and York, then up to Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

"The distance between Manchester and Leeds is no longer than the Central Line in London - there is no reason why our northern cities should not operate as one economic powerhouse provided they are properly connected up.”

Jeremy Blackburn
Jeremy Blackburn, head of policy for the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, RICS, called for the creation of a high-speed rail link between Manchester and Leeds.

He said: “Better connecting our northern cities, industries, airports and ports will help unleash economic potential.

"We strongly welcome the Chancellor’s comments on the power and potential of our northern cities, it is recognition of what they can do to contribute not only to the economic recovery, but as the basis of a competitive nation on the world stage.

“RICS has long emphasised the concept of locational investment and prioritising regional infrastructure that creates better connectivity for people and goods, particularly rail. This announcement sows the seeds for the focus on regional infrastructure pipelines and delivery mechanisms in the next Parliament.

“The needs in the North can be met through greater investment in existing networks and conventional rail and road, properly expanded and upgraded, and connected to the spine of HS2 which makes it to Newcastle. The Northern Hub and Pennine Electrification show the way.”

Michael Taylor, chairman of Downtown Manchester in Business, met the PM and Chancellor following the announcement at MOSI yesterday.

He said he also discussed greater devolution of powers to the regions via key measures such as elected metro mayors with Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne.

”It was genuinely beneficial to meet with the Prime Minister and Chancellor," he said. "We broadly welcome their joint announcement to genuinely embrace and encourage the devolution of greater powers to city regions such as Manchester.

Michael Taylor, chairman of Downtown Manchester in Business

"The conversation has to start with a debate on what those powers are and will be and how they can be applied to the benefit of the relevant areas.

“We particularly welcome the Chancellor’s offer to city regions to encourage so-called elected metro mayors with real powers.

"The point I made to him and the Prime Minister related specifically to how such measures to devolve powers to the regions can help meet the needs of businesses seeking a better educated and skilled workforce.”

Dr Colin Brown, director of Engineering at the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, said in response to George Osborne’s speech on a high speed train link between Manchester and Leeds:“A properly integrated and efficient transport system is critical to creating a balanced economy and creating a high speed link between Manchester and Leeds could help bridge the north south economic divide more quickly.

“The importance of a 21st century link between these important cities is clear, and moves us a step towards what we really need.

"But while it is a positive step, we need more than piecemeal ambitions. The UK needs a clear strategy for further sustainable and resilient transport links across the country, which includes high speed rail.

“Confidence and forward planning are key to keeping costs down and we need to ensure we are able to access the talent and expertise from people developing projects like Crossrail to move the UK’s transport infrastructure into the 21st century.”

Professor Nuno Gil, academic director for the Centre for Infrastructure Development at Manchester Business School, said HS3 needs to be seen in a national context.

He added: "As the HS2 planning application sits in the UK Parliament over the next couple of years, London lobbyists are arguing for more public multi-billion pounds investment in a so-called Crossrail 2.

"This comes after massive investment in infrastructure in London in the last two decades including Crossrail 1 and all the preparations for London 2012.

Prof Nuno Gil

"HS2 is a first move towards a more equitable distribution of resources by the central government.

"But were Crossrail 2 to forge ahead without commensurate investment to address the transport problems in the North, the centre would again be exacerbating asymmetries between north and south.

"Thus, it is timely that politicians start a conversation about a HS3, especially considering how expensive property in London has become in recent years."

He added: "Ultimately, all these investments suggest that the XXI century will be about creating a resilient and robust infrastructure that ensures the country will be ready for coping with the challenges posed by an increasingly overcrowded and competitive world, and thus preparing the UK for the XXII century.

"As these investments forge ahead, a services corridor between the south and north will gradually emerge, and the UK landscape seems slated to resemble in many ways that of Japan with its vast industrial corridor connecting all the main cities.”

Katja Hall, CBI deputy director-general, said: “To keep the wheels on the recovery turning, we need to maximise growth across the UK. Better east-west links in the north could provide a huge boost to local businesses, and help further balance the UK economy by creating a northern hub.

“However, any proposals need careful planning. The priority must be boosting connections, not speed. We need to see more detail for such a project, which must be good value for money for the taxpayer.”

Prime Minister David Cameron at Victoria Station

PM David Cameron also told the M.E.N how HS3 would boost apprenticeships.

He said: "What we need to do is to have a proper skills plan which we do now have, train up apprentices with the skills we are going to need for these big projects.

"We did it for the Olympics where we saw a massive investment in building and other apprenticeship skills, you can see that happening with cross rail, with the tunnelling academies, training the tunnelers of the future that will go on to HS2 and with these proposals for HS3. I'm determined these are jobs that should go to British people with the right skills and the right education."

1,471 Posts
Also from MEN Business

Prime Minister accepts 'there will be disruption' for communities if HS3 route goes ahead...
23 June 2014 05:37 PM By Charlotte Cox

But says the bigger picture will be a 'northern powerhouse'

The Prime Minister has accepted that a ‘HS3’ line between Manchester and Leeds would bring ‘issues, objections and compensation packages’ for communities en route.

David Cameron spoke to the M.E.N after Chancellor George Osborne’s speech on the £7bn proposal at the Museum of Science and Indstury.

The Tatton MP said the high speed connection would be based on the existing rail route between the two cities but with new tunnels and infrastructure to take speeds up to 120mph. It was part of his call to northern cities to band together and become a ‘economy powerhouse’.

On a practical level, the line could not stop at all the stations it does now, and some smaller communities would inevitably feel the impact of an ‘HS3’.

Afterwards, at Victoria Station amid work to transform the station as part of the Northern Hub, Mr Cameron said; “Every time you want to build important new infrastructure there are always issues you have to address, objections you have to overcome, compensation packages you have to put in place and of course anything we did with those, we’d have to meet all those challenges.

“But we should concentrate today, I think ,on the vision which is we can do more to link the great cities in the north of England, particularly east-west connectivity which isn’t nearly as god as it should be and it’s these sorts of visions which can really transform countries.

“If you think of the big motorways or railways that were built in the past, the visions that Victorians had about uniting our country and ensuring we made the most of uniting our cities, that’s what this is all about.”

Residents affected by HS2 have been seeking compensation.

Blueprints for the preferred scheme show the track and airport station will cut across the affluent Hale Barns area of Altrincham, which lies just off the M56.

The final decision the line will not be made until next year, but some property owners say they are already unable to sell their homes because of the scheme.

The government has promised that anyone who has to sell their land to make way for the line will get the open market rate, plus compensation for any loss in value to the part they retain. But they will have to wait for the route to be confirmed before they can claim.

Householders may also be served with a Compulsory Purchase Order for their land in 2015.

246 Posts
Osbourne's speech was almost exclusively ripped from Evan Davies BBC2 "Mind The Gap"

"...Manchester only City which can rival London etc "

Good publicity reinforcing Manchester as best City outside London even if nothing comes of it.

When they "do up" the railway can they repaint the bridges as well !

They are a shocking eyesore which would vastly impove the image if cleaned up !

1,571 Posts

Where's Georgie-boy today?

Five northern cities set to outline £15bn transport plan

Chancellor George Osborne has called for transport investment to boost cities including Manchester

Five cities in the North of England are to unveil a £15bn plan to improve road and rail connections in the region.

The joint One North report will include plans for a new 125mph inter-city rail link, faster links with Newcastle and better access to ports and airports.

It has been developed by an alliance of five cities - Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle and Sheffield.

It comes after George Osborne said faster links between Manchester and Leeds could create a "powerhouse".

The report will be presented to the chancellor in Manchester later.

In a speech in June the chancellor said the cities in the north of England were individually strong but were "collectively not strong enough".

He said better road and rail links would allow cities across northern England - from Liverpool to Hull - to create a "northern global powerhouse" and "take on the world", as London had done.

The chancellor said the plan for a high-speed rail link between Manchester and Leeds could cost up to £7bn - but could be cheaper if existing rail lines were updated.

Map of HS2 with additional possible HS3 link

The green line between Manchester and Leeds shows the existing route which Mr Osborne says could form the basis for a new high speed link
He said a so-called HS3 should be considered as part of a review into the second phase of the HS2 high-speed rail project.

The current plan for the first phase of the project between London and Birmingham has proved controversial. Many people living along the planned route have raised objections, and there is criticism of the £42.6bn estimated total cost.

The government's preferred route for the second phase involves extensions linking Birmingham with Manchester and Leeds - with the final route expected to be chosen by the end of this year.

Mr Osborne said HS3 could cut the journey time between Leeds and Manchester from about 50 minutes to 30 minutes, with trains travelling at up to 140mph, compared with the current maximum of 90mph.

BBC's northern business reporter Sarah Corker said the One North report would describe how faster links from east to west in northern England could provide a huge boost to the economy and create jobs.

She said it was an "ambitious transport plan with the aim of transforming road and rail connections between the northern cities and unlocking the area's economic potential".

Our correspondent said council leaders in northern cities had argued that for years transport links in the region have been far too slow and inferior compared to those in the south of England.
1 - 20 of 513 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.