[hornetfig]

Officially the Tangaras are getting a life extension program. But it's taken years to get nowhere, allegedly because of the workshop model of their construction meaning there are too many variances between units. So, in turn it's rumoured to be effectively abandoned and they'll just be replaced.

C-sets have one week to live. There are 160 K-set cars but 220 H-set cars to cascade into suburban service, plus Bankstown services will cease by some time in 2023. So early T-sets are already earmarkable for the scrapheap.

 

[DAJAN]

C-sets have one week to live. There are 160 K-set cars but 220 H-set cars to cascade into suburban service, plus Bankstown services will cease by some time in 2023. So early T-sets are already earmarkable for the scrapheap.

The ceasing of Bankstown services doesn't mean a reduction of DD rolling stock needed, since those slots will be taken by additional T8 and T2 services. Both of which are longer journeys than the City-Bankstown portion of the T3, hence it will be a slight increase in overall DD stock needed.

Also T4 will have 10 extra trains once the South Coast line ceases using the ESR (instead taking the Illawarra Locals and the Dive into ST).
That lines up with the second B order being for 17 x 8-car sets- 7 sets to replace the C's, and 10 sets as the extra for T4 (although it would likely involve some shuffling of stock between sectors, with 10 of the 8-car T's moving to T4 away from T1 / T9).

They could possibly scrap up to 10 x 8 car K sets now, (following the 7 X 8 C's) since T4 won't be able to take an extra 10 trains until a couple of years time (once T3 is no longer occupying the Illawarra locals), but that's only if enough
Oscars are able to cascade onto suburban use by then ....
(which in turn depends on what the new D's will replace first - Oscars or V's, or a bit of both).

Otherwise, we may just see up to 10 x 8 K's parked in reserve for 2 years, then brought back out for Sector 2, when 10 x A sets shuffle over to T1/T8, thus allowing 10 X 8-car T's to move over to T4 for the service increases.

 

[OZ Rails]

With the possible T4 fleet replacement, It is an interesting one. In theory, with a quad from Hurstville to Mortdale station, you could completely separate out T4 to Bondi Junction. Stabling is the Mortdale sheds (may need new sheds further out for the Double Deckers - Waterfall?) and Bondi Junction has the turn back capacity (although it would be great to see this line extended to Bondi beach).

The trains used on this new independent sector could be Driver Only Single Deck but surely with such an opportunity of separation, they would want fully automated services to remove the issues with drivers as well as the Union. Obviously we know from the recent NIF threats, the Union won't accept the removal of guards. I'm not sure driver only is enough of a carrot to the Government for that fight..

Then you need to consider gap fillers and look at platform screen doors for all stations, or could you get away with at least fitting PSD for the city stations and maybe Hurstville, Kogarah and Wolli Creek. Perhaps Sydenham too? How straight are the platforms from Mortdale up?

South Coast and Cronulla trains use the local track pair as per the planned changes for T4 already. Question is, would sending Cronulla trains to Central to terminate be acceptable? To try and send Metro trains to Cronulla adds another dimension in cost and disruption to this project and it becomes a big undertaking. I think the key is the simplicity of that Mortdale to Bondi separation without substantial investment elsewhere but is it politically palatable?

 

[L2]

They could possibly scrap up to 10 x 8 car K sets now, (following the 7 X 8 C's) since T4 won't be able to take an extra 10 trains until a couple of years time (once T3 is no longer occupying the Illawarra locals), but that's only if enough
Oscars are able to cascade onto suburban use by then ....
(which in turn depends on what the new D's will replace first - Oscars or V's, or a bit of both).

Otherwise, we may just see up to 10 x 8 K's parked in reserve for 2 years, then brought back out for Sector 2, when 10 x A sets shuffle over to T1/T8, thus allowing 10 X 8-car T's to move over to T4 for the service increases.

The altered timetable from February 28th apparently only has 13x 8K consists scheduled to run on weekdays, which is allowing for a lot of redundancy given that there are 20 8-car K sets.

 

[DAJAN]

The altered timetable from February 28th apparently only has 13x 8K consists scheduled to run on weekdays, which is allowing for a lot of redundancy given that there are 20 8-car K sets.

Exactly my point.
The surplus K sets can only be scrapped now, if it's certain that H cars will cascade over to suburban rosters in time for T4 needing 10 extra trains. Otherwise they'll probably be in storage for a couple of years.

 

[df1]

With the possible T4 fleet replacement, It is an interesting one. In theory, with a quad from Hurstville to Mortdale station, you could completely separate out T4 to Bondi Junction. Stabling is the Mortdale sheds (may need new sheds further out for the Double Deckers - Waterfall?) and Bondi Junction has the turn back capacity (although it would be great to see this line extended to Bondi beach).

The trains used on this new independent sector could be Driver Only Single Deck but surely with such an opportunity of separation, they would want fully automated services to remove the issues with drivers as well as the Union. Obviously we know from the recent NIF threats, the Union won't accept the removal of guards. I'm not sure driver only is enough of a carrot to the Government for that fight..

Then you need to consider gap fillers and look at platform screen doors for all stations, or could you get away with at least fitting PSD for the city stations and maybe Hurstville, Kogarah and Wolli Creek. Perhaps Sydenham too? How straight are the platforms from Mortdale up?

South Coast and Cronulla trains use the local track pair as per the planned changes for T4 already. Question is, would sending Cronulla trains to Central to terminate be acceptable? To try and send Metro trains to Cronulla adds another dimension in cost and disruption to this project and it becomes a big undertaking. I think the key is the simplicity of that Mortdale to Bondi separation without substantial investment elsewhere but is it politically palatable?

Would quadding all the way to Sutherland (potentially via the original corridor through Oatley) be that much more disruptive than quadding to Mortdale? It would solve the Cronulla issue (yes, Cronulla trains would then be stopping all stations, but if it's metro then stopping services can be considerably speeded up, or passengers can do cross-platform interchange with express trains at Sutherland).

The big advantage of converting T4 to metro is that, for the Illawarra line section, it could be done without much disruption to passengers (since stopping services can continue on the other track pair).

As for driverless, I think some of the stations would be very tricky to straighten out for PSDs. The alternative is to do driverless without PSDs, like Vancouver does (platforms have motion sensors instead to detect people on the tracks), or to have curved platforms with PSDs (like Paris does at some stations). DDA becomes the issue, though. If you need a staff member on every platform then getting rid of drivers loses its economic advantage.

 

[John.S]

If you need a staff member on every platform then getting rid of drivers loses its economic advantage.

Not necessarily. A driver would be on much more than $20/hr which is what you could pay someone on the station for.

 

[L2]

Not necessarily. A driver would be on much more than $20/hr which is what you could pay someone on the station for.

Lol, not on any kind of union agreement. The most lowly employees on the railway make whose job is just to stand next to the ticket barriers and smile make $70k including penalty rates, more if they do overtime.

 

[EnolaGray]

Lol, not on any kind of union agreement. The most lowly employees on the railway make whose job is just to stand next to the ticket barriers and smile make $70k including penalty rates, more if they do overtime.

It’s still a lot less then drivers make, and removes the complexity of shift changes and scheduling for driver changes. It also reduces the training liability and removes the issue of driver fatigue and running red signals.

As for the unions, if you dont actually need staff there for the train network to operate then they’ve lost a massive amount of bargaining power. The threat of a strike only means an inconvenience for those who need assistance at stations, the operation of the train network can still continue.

Government could in theory just put on taxis for those who require physical assistance for the duration of the strike, and it would probably cost the same if not less then the cost of the staff members at the stations.

 

[historyworks]

The metro is fully accessible, thus there's no need for assistance of any sort. The staff person at each station is basically there for security and tasks like ensuring that the toilets are in order. If it wasn't for the toilets, security oversight and the rare possibility of some malfunction at the ticket gates, escalators or lifts it would be possible to have nobody there at all.

 

[Stadium Lover]

The metro is fully accessible, thus there's no need for assistance of any sort. The staff person at each station is basically there for security and tasks like ensuring that the toilets are in order. If it wasn't for the toilets, security oversight and the rare possibility of some malfunction at the ticket gates, escalators or lifts it would be possible to have nobody there at all.

And that's why the Metro has it all over Sydney trains. Sure, there is the occasional glitch, but it is so much more reliable.

 

[df1]

The metro is fully accessible, thus there's no need for assistance of any sort. The staff person at each station is basically there for security and tasks like ensuring that the toilets are in order. If it wasn't for the toilets, security oversight and the rare possibility of some malfunction at the ticket gates, escalators or lifts it would be possible to have nobody there at all.

That's because the platforms are perfectly straight, so there is no gap between the train and the platform curb. But on existing stations with curved platforms the resulting gap may be too much for wheelchair users to take without assistance. You might be able to get away with only a certain section of the train being flush with the platform, but it would have to be consistent across the entire line.

 

[OZ Rails]

Would quadding all the way to Sutherland (potentially via the original corridor through Oatley) be that much more disruptive than quadding to Mortdale? It would solve the Cronulla issue (yes, Cronulla trains would then be stopping all stations, but if it's metro then stopping services can be considerably speeded up, or passengers can do cross-platform interchange with express trains at Sutherland).

The big advantage of converting T4 to metro is that, for the Illawarra line section, it could be done without much disruption to passengers (since stopping services can continue on the other track pair).

As for driverless, I think some of the stations would be very tricky to straighten out for PSDs. The alternative is to do driverless without PSDs, like Vancouver does (platforms have motion sensors instead to detect people on the tracks), or to have curved platforms with PSDs (like Paris does at some stations). DDA becomes the issue, though. If you need a staff member on every platform then getting rid of drivers loses its economic advantage.

Yes, my understanding is that it's actually a huge job to quad past Mortdale as it's difficult to build and thus very expensive. Mortdale is apparently pretty straight forward and explains why I recall that it appeared as a 2 stage project in earlier Government docs. Even if that wasn't the case, it's clearly a much more expensive option with the longer distance, river crossing etc than 2 stations from Hurstville.

I definitely agree on it being easier to Metro convert the Illawarra for that reason, I was trying to picture the stations to Hurstville, I thought unlike most lines, they were pretty straight. Doable I assumed since it was a Government policy to Metro convert to Hurstville. I'm always on an express train to Wollongong, too fast to notice. Which stations stand out to you?

 

[df1]

Really? I have no inside information, but it's the Hurstville-Mortdale section that looks the hardest to my eye, and I figured the only viable solution was to tunnel it, with the express trains using the tunnel and the stoppers taking the existing tracks. Beyond Mortdale there seems to ample space to quadruplicate within the existing reservation (especially if the return to the original alignment through Oatley).

As for the tricky platforms: Mortdale, Allawah, Tempe look the hardest, but it depends which platforms you use (I would assume the easternmost track pair due to Wolli Creek).

 

[historyworks]

That's because the platforms are perfectly straight, so there is no gap between the train and the platform curb. But on existing stations with curved platforms the resulting gap may be too much for wheelchair users to take without assistance. You might be able to get away with only a certain section of the train being flush with the platform, but it would have to be consistent across the entire line.

They're going to use gap fillers on the Bankstown line.

 

[boxe]

I went to observe the unusual trackwork on Sydney Metro over the weekend and here are my findings:

It is a false assumption and assertion to believe Sydney Metro is fully automated as we see here, a human presence was required to request passengers to leave the ex Chatswood train at Bella Vista


Whilst ex Chatswood service announcements/messages couldn't be automated, they changed the stopping pattern on the internal destination indicators


ex Chatswood Trains and Tallawong Bound trains at Bella Vista both departed from Platform 2

The situation at Tallawong meanwhile


Notice how there was an automated termination announcements/messages at Tallawong and special ones for ex Tallawong trains heading towards Chatswood:



Cross platform interchange required at Bella Vista when travelling ex Tallawong heading towards Chatswood


Glitch on train position at Bella Vista on an ex Tallawong train

 

[Dyllip]

The PID and communication systems are admittedly clunky tbh. Or the staff don't know how to use them to their full potential. As clunky as Sydney Trains with their automated/manual duplicate announcements and poor relay of information re delays.

 

[historyworks]

I couldn't spot the intervening human in any of those videos. Is this the metro version of Where's Wally?

 

[df1]

They're going to use gap fillers on the Bankstown line.

But those haven't gone into service yet, so it remains to be seen how seamless the operation will be, both in terms of disabled access and mechanical reliability. It will be interesting to see how they go, but my sense is they will be OK for half a line, but having them all over the network might be more of a stretch (and none of the Bankstown platforms are excessively curvy, unlike say Wollstonecraft).

 

[historyworks]

But those haven't gone into service yet, so it remains to be seen how seamless the operation will be, both in terms of disabled access and mechanical reliability. It will be interesting to see how they go, but my sense is they will be OK for half a line, but having them all over the network might be more of a stretch (and none of the Bankstown platforms are excessively curvy, unlike say Wollstonecraft).

They won't be needed anywhere on the metro system apart from the Bankstown line because it is being designed with modern straight platforms.