[Steve Ellwood]

I see on those mpas above, north of where the Eygpt Cottage used to be, is somewhere called 'Red Barns'. I'm assuming this has soemthing to do with a farm/agriculture use for the area? Or is it named after something else?

Source : St Dominics Parish Newcastle upon Tyne 1873-1973 - A History from the point of view of the Parishioners, complied by Antony Archer O.P.

"Red Barns a fairly large but ugly 18th century house with what had been its gardens lying between Gibson Street and what became Crawhall Road. With the house went a row of terraced houses, Red Barnes Terrace, and various outbuildings.

There was supposed to have been the ghost, that of someone who had committed suicide in the Town in 1817 and was buried during the night at the junction of the three roads, Stepney Lane, Gibson Street and Newbridge Street, the last time this form of burial for suicide was practiced in Newcastle. The ghost of the woman was supposed to have attached itself to Red Barns."

The use of Red Barns as a place/area name seems to be widespread and one site makes the claim that "Hundreds of years ago, farmers would seal their barns with linseed oil mixed with rust, which turned the mixture red." - that however may relate to the USA

 

[Steve Ellwood]

I nipped into Local Studies after the match this afternoon and managed to look at Corbridge’s map, and it makes no mention of the Egypt Inn or an area called Egypt. The assistant also said there is no record of a pub or area of that name - or even of an Egypt Cottage - anywhere in their index system, which is most bizarre.

I first became interested in the origins of the name when Fred Plater took the pub over in 1986. The brewery had told him it was Newcastle’s oldest pub, and I seem to remember verifying this for him at the time. This is why I've been a bit vague about possibly seeing it marked on a map: it was over quarter of a century ago.

As chance would have it, I’m off out for a few beers tonight with the lad who managed it for Fred when it reopened, and lived above it for the first two years. I’ll ask him what he remembers.

Meanwhile, I found this mention in my own collection of cuttings, from the Evening Chronicle, December 1997:



As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Brian says in his book 'Heavy Nights' that the pub "certainly" existed as the Egypt Inn in the early 18th century. The references to grain seem to come from Charleton or, as Steve pointed out earlier, McKenzie - which now seems to be the original source. Excellent work Steve.

I have also found some notes I made back in ’86, but they don’t shed much light on the matter: “The pub as rebuilt in 1873 for Susannah Gibson, a wealthy local land-owner, well known for her generosity to local charities and the religious body with which she was connected. She was particularly concerned about victims of ‘vice and sensuality’, and left cash for the Newcastle Asylum for Female Penitents, and the Worn-out Wesleyan Ministers’ Fund”. I believe that nearby Gibson Street was named in her honour.

I’m now quite determined to get to the bottom of why the area was known as ‘Egypt’, and will head off to the Tyne & Wear archives tomorrow if I can find the time.

Funny how one thing leads to another - a search for Susanne Gibson brought me to the Biscuit Factory web site which mentions this in their time line @ http://www.thebiscuitfactory.com/history/

1857 Indentured to Mr George Tallentire Gibson for £10,800 by Sir M W Ridley Baronet as part of what is called The Red Barns Estate.

1860 Work on the building which exists today is started.

1865 George Gibson dies and the site becomes the property of his widow, Susanna.

1870 This is the first record of The Tyne Biscuit Factory when Susanna Gibson takes out a mortgage of £3000.

1879 Susanna Gibson sells The Biscuit Factory to Mr Thomas Squire and his son for the sum of £4230.

Also this mention on the Tyne and Wear Archives Catalogue:

Stanton Croft and Co, solicitors Collection 16th-20th centuries
Contracts for building work to be carried out by Walter Scott

RefNo DT.SC/252/3

Title Block of buildings intended as business premises at the junction of City Road and Melbourne Street, Newcastle, for Susanna Gibson of Newcastle, widow
Date 6 July 1889

Also happened upon the Tyne & Wear Specialist Conservation Team Annual Report from 2009 @
http://www.newcastle.gov.uk/wwwfileroot/legacy/regen/plantrans/SCTAR2009_lo.pdf

The former Tyne Tees Television Studios are in the process of being demolished. In advance of this clearance, Alan Williams Archaeology recorded the Egypt Cottage public house.

John Wood’s town plan of 1827 shows this general area as ‘Egypt’. The name may have come from the granaries on the north side of the ‘New Road’, which were likened to the grain warehouses of the pharaohs described in the Bible. The original Egypt Cottage public house is shown on the plan at the end of a row of cottages with transverse blocks to the rear.

Thomas Oliver’s town plan of 1830 shows the Egypt Cottage as a detached building with two porches or projecting windows.

John Bell was the landlord. By the 1860s there were warehouses to the rear which were associated with a timber yard.

The second edition Ordnance Survey shows further constructions including Egypt House and a Wesleyan Mission Chapel. It was demolished in 1873 and the present pub of the same name was built by a Susanna Gibson.

The pub was sold to McEwan’s in 1925, passed to Scottish & Newcastle Brewery and is now a free house.

The new Egypt Cottage was brick, apart from some sandstone walls in the cellar and the building was skewed to take in the curve of City Road. On the ground floor there was a bar, bar parlour, tap room and a kitchen. The first floor was accommodation and a long club room. The first floor had six sash windows with stone lintels and sills and a slate roof. The ground floor elevation was ornate with panelling and windows and three doors.

There were major adaptations in 1937 by WM and TR Milburn of Sunderland. The surviving façade is much as altered in the 1930s. Ornate corbels have been added between the two floors. Inside the alterations have been more radical. A large portion of the first floor has been removed above the main bar and the staircase has been altered. The bar is decorated in a style which harks back to the Art Deco period and features Egyptian art which was popular following the discovery of Tutankhamun’s tomb in 1922. The marble topped bar and tall shelving to the rear are quite grand. In the 1950s the surrounding site was developed for Tyne Tees Television. The Egypt Cottage, as the local public house, became known as ‘studio five’ (there were only four Tyne Tees studios). Tyne and Wear Museums have produced an assessment of
the Tyne Tees Studios site.

 

[Al Reetson]

Am off out now, but just quickly wanted to say thanks for that Steve - great stuff. Thanks also to NH for the maps as well.

 

[Newcastle Historian]

According to the below links on our 'Index Thread', the discussion as to which is the oldest pub in Newcastle, is still ongoing . . .

Oldest Pub in Newcastle and/or Newcastle City Centre
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=68782127&postcount=469
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=68782129&postcount=473
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=68782131&postcount=476
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=88185336&postcount=2073
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=88240569&postcount=2081
.

 

[growly grace]

Is it possible that the grain for the temporary silo's was imported form Baltic traders or am I just stating the bleeding obvious?

 

[Steve Ellwood]

Is it possible that the grain for the temporary silo's was imported form Baltic traders or am I just stating the bleeding obvious?

Yes that's my understanding - grain imported from the Baltic and ships returning with coal as ballast. Grain wasn't only for Newcastle's consumption but was re-exported to various ports around Britain.

 

[Wildcat45]

School Strike - by kids in the 1980s.

Not sure where is the right place to post this, but here goes.

Who remembers a really wierd thing that happened in Newcastle round the early to mid 1980s - My guess from memory will be 1984/85.

It was a mass school strike.

I was at Gosforth High at the time and remember it all starting with (My memory is hazy) perhaps some Socialist Worker type seller hanging round the school. It was the first time I ever experienced anything happen en masse.

Rumours spread round the school in the morning that there would be a strike. Was it in support of the miners? One suggestion that it was actually in support of teachers who were running work-to-rule protests at the time.

From the start of the school day - so that would be 845 - to lunctime it all brewed up. By 12 there was a decent crowd at the school gates. A teacher's car got damaged by a fat kid who plonked himself on the bonnet. Tens turned into scores, then hundreds. I watched it all from inside school. I happened to be in though we were all normally locked out at lunch, I was doing some project or other with a couple of other kids. We watched amazed. I remember going into an office and calling Tyne Tees News who pitched up with a logo'd up Granada Estate which made matters worse. Senior teachers were out and having no effect. Eventually the word went out that there would be no action taken if everyone came back in. Few did, and for us left in school we were more or less told by the teachers to please ourselves so we buggered off down to Carricks on the High Street with the rest of the mob.

This though was not an isolated incident. It happened at schools across Newcastle that day.

Now my memory is quite hazy but I recal some schoolgirl (Perhaps from Rutherford?) who acted as a spokesman for all this. It got as high as the civic centre and TV cameras filmed her telling the crowd about negotiations they had had. It got on national news. I recall some of her words something like "Reet now there will be no expels if wu get back to school."

So, what was it all about? Who remembers it? Did anyone take part? Remember this was mass action way before mass communication. No mobiles, no smartphones, no Twitter, Facebook, no internet.

Who was behind it? Commies/socialist workers? Students? The NF - they were quite active at the time with their stickers? Was it just mischief? People power?

 

[Al Reetson]

I haven't been able to visit the Tyne & Wear archives today, but I've set aside some time to do this tomorrow.

Meanwhile, here's a thought: it's possible the area we're discussing isn't the only part of Newcastle's riverside with an Egypt connection in its title. Just a mile or so further downstream, St Anthony's appears to be named after its church of St Anthony of Egypt.

 

[newcastlepubs]

Just in the library.Al' your presence was noted yesterday . I asked to you have a map of.... to which cam the reply 'are you looking into the Egypt Cottage ?'

Anyway; I knew I was a fool to rely on the Chronic'

Historic pub The Egypt Cottage goes down the tubes
Aug 9 2009 by Coreena Ford, Sunday Sun
The pub with a famous history

On New Year’s Day 1832 the Egypt Cottage was seriously damaged by a fire which broke out in the early hours after the landlord had closed up and left to celebrate elsewhere.

A large crowd of revellers gathered and watched the fire brigade take over an hour to control the blaze.

It’s thought the fire was started by burglars . . . when the landlord was later let back into his pub he was alarmed to discover that £23 he had earlier hidden in a settee had disappeared.

The pub wasn’t rebuilt until 1873, when it was sold to McEwan’s for £6250 in 1925, passed to Scottish and Newcastle and is now a free house.

Coreena's excellent journalism above is lifted verbatim from Bennison, with the small, though significant typo that Bennsion gives the fire as 1932. Good old Chronic'......well done that girl .

OK...Egypt and all that. This is a bit photo heavy - sorry. Trade directories first; Parson of 1828 has no reference to the Cottage, but it does appear in Pigot of 1834.

Red Barns:

Bourne [you can also see on NH's uncropped photo] has it at the top/north of the unbuilt area. It s in the same place in Thompson of 1746

As does Oliver of 1831:

So there's still nothing on the 'pub' before around 1830. Though the maps are not reliable the earliest it can have been on the Tyne Tees site is 1776 when the street was laid out.

Now to Egypt. This is Charleton 'Streets of Newcastle' [1885-6 -which seems to be columns from the Chronic']. Too much for me to re type:

Unfortunately.... he doesn't tell us who the other writer is....however as these are columns from the paper I wonder if the other writer might be a correspondent - in the sense of a reader. The quote makes sense in that context.

However he does refer to Egypt Cottages....

One other Egypt thought.... the whole area was dotted with ropeworks, the main constituent of which was of course hemp [was Egypt a producer?]

In conclusion... I wonder if I/we are missing something on the EC. I can't find anything to support anything there before 1776, but Al - neither you nor Bennision are likely to have plucked early c18 out of the air - your 1734 is too specific to not be 'tied' to something.

 

[Percy Trimmer]

I wonder if 'Egypt' originally simply referred to the temporary character or appearance of the site or its occupants. The English word 'Gypsy' comes for 'Egypt' so there might be a link there - not that there had to be gypsies living there, only that the area had the appearance of something marginal or unsettled.

 

[Al Reetson]

Marvellous stuff NP.

To be honest, I’m not surprised they remember my visit yesterday; I was rather exasperated that they claimed to have no record of any references to Egypt or the Egypt Cottage in their index of cuttings files or books. Fortunately you seem to have been able to find what you wanted. I only had a few minutes before they closed, and just managed to have a look at the maps you’ve posted above.

The Charleton stuff is particularly interesting. As you say, it’s a shame we’ll never know who he was quoting, but the person seems to have had first-hand knowledge of the buildings and is dismissive of the corn theory. I think the key to this lies with the “low flat buildings” he mentions and which seem to feature on maps, and appear to predate the “row of elegant houses” known as the Egypt Cottages.

My own speculation is that the area was named after these low buildings, or perhaps even something that stood there previously. If there was an inn there – which we haven’t been able to establish yet, but its absence from the maps is not encouraging – then it would have stood on a route used by pilgrims heading towards Tynemouth, and its shrines to St. Oswin and St. Henry of Coquet.

It was not unusual for inns to be given biblical names in mediaeval times, particularly those on the routes used by pilgrims. ‘Egypt’ certainly features in the bible, and Tynemouth was a popular destination for pilgrims in mediaeval times.

If only we could find a reference to an inn.

 

[newcastlepubs]

I wonder if 'Egypt' originally simply referred to the temporary character or appearance of the site or its occupants. The English word 'Gypsy' comes for 'Egypt' so there might be a link there - not that there had to be gypsies living there, only that the area had the appearance of something marginal or unsettled.

I thought that but FWIW Charleton specifically excludes it.

There are also Egypts in

Yorkshire
http://www.bradfordhistorical.org.uk/antiquary/third/vol01/jericho.html

Berkshire
http://cartographic.info/uk_street/map.php?id=261387

Bucks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt,_Buckinghamshire

The dating also ties [roughly anyway] to the battle of the Nile in 1798.

 

[Ken O'Heed]

Gibson Stret, Newcastle upon Tyne - picture 06/02/12

With all the recent discussion about Gibson Street and being in the area this afternoon, took this photograph ( hosted on Photobucket) looking north from point just north of junction with City Road

KEN

 

[battlefieldjohn]

Regarding the last incarnation of the Egypt cottage, would I be correct in assuming it was built as part of the old tyne tees building .

I had always assumed it was a separate building, but when tyne tees came down it looked to be part of it.

It was only about 50 yards from my front door but a rarely went in,over priced and poor atmosphere, still resting on its laurels from the tube days.

 

[newcastlepubs]

Marvellous stuff NP.

To be honest, I’m not surprised they remember my visit yesterday; I was rather exasperated that they claimed to have no record of any references to Egypt or the Egypt Cottage in their index of cuttings files or books. Fortunately you seem to have been able to find what you wanted. I only had a few minutes before they closed, and just managed to have a look at the maps you’ve posted above.

The Charleton stuff is particularly interesting. As you say, it’s a shame we’ll never know who he was quoting, but the person seems to have had first-hand knowledge of the buildings and is dismissive of the corn theory. I think the key to this lies with the “low flat buildings” he mentions and which seem to feature on maps, and appear to predate the “row of elegant houses” known as the Egypt Cottages.

My own speculation is that the area was named after these low buildings, or perhaps even something that stood there previously. If there was an inn there – which we haven’t been able to establish yet, but its absence from the maps is not encouraging – then it would have stood on a route used by pilgrims heading towards Tynemouth, and its shrines to St. Oswin and St. Henry of Coquet.

It was not unusual for inns to be given biblical names in mediaeval times, particularly those on the routes used by pilgrims. ‘Egypt’ certainly features in the bible, and Tynemouth was a popular destination for pilgrims in mediaeval times.

If only we could find a reference to an inn.

I agree. I suspect its most likely the buildings which are the origin, but [and this is probably] co incidence, Egypt seems to appear at roughly the time of the Battle of the Nile, Nelson beating that nasty Frenchie .

What's odd is that the whole surrounding area seems to have been positively splattered with Inns, yet there's this odd hole in the middle of the doughnut with nothing it it. Could there have been a 'speak-easy' not necessarily recorded. I have in mind an unlicenced gin shop type.

Regarding the last incarnation of the Egypt cottage, would I be correct in assuming it was built as part of the old tyne tees building. I had always assumed it was a separate building, but when tyne tees came down it looked to be part of it.

More the other way round; TTTV tacked onto the side and wrapping round it. Clearest in the aerial pic.

 

[Al Reetson]

I agree. I suspect its most likely the buildings which are the origin, but [and this is probably] co incidence, Egypt seems to appear at roughly the time of the Battle of the Nile, Nelson beating that nasty Frenchie .

There certainly was once a fashion for giving places names with Napoleonic references. There are several Nelsons in the UK: we have one in the north east, as well as a Blucher.

But after a quick search of Google Maps on my phone, I can only find one instance of Egypt, and that appears to be a field in Hampshire.

 

[newcastlepubs]

Use:

http://www.gazetteer.co.uk/

I got:

Egypt SE0933 Yorkshire, West Riding Bradford W York York&H
Egypt SU4476 Berkshire W Berks Tham V S East
Egypt SU4640 Hampshire Hants Win'ster Hants S East
Egypt SU9685 Buckinghamshire Bucks S Bucks

 

[Al Reetson]

Use:

http://www.gazetteer.co.uk/

I got:

In the interest of thoroughness, I took a quick look on Google for the origins of their names.

According to Wikipedia, the Egypt in Buckinghamshire got its name from some gypsies who'd lived there. The one in Berkshire is a row of houses that is known as Egypt because they stand on Alexandria Road.

The Yorkshire one has a number of biblically-named hamlets nearby, such as Jerusalem and Jericho.

 

[newcastlepubs]

I got a slightly different reference for yorkshire:

http://www.bradfordhistorical.org.uk/antiquary/third/vol01/jericho.html

well 'ish as a possibility anyway

Kendall & Wroot suggest that it commemorates the invasion of Egypt by Napoleon in 1798

But you re probably right, no connection to the matter at hand...

 

[Al Reetson]

I’ve been to the Tyne & Wear archives today to have a root about, and I still find can’t anything conclusive. Among the maps I looked at, J. Roper’s from 1808 shows an area called ‘New Egpyt’, while on John Wood’s 1827 map it’s known simply as ‘Egypt’. The Directory of Newcastle, by M.A.Richardson, from 1838, lists an “Egypt Cottage, John Bell, New Road”. I think this is the earliest positive dating of the pub so far.

I also looked at the plans for the 1873 rebuild. I was asked for a five-quid fee to use my own camera and photograph it, but I declined this so I’ll describe it instead. There was a horseshoe-shaped building behind it at the time, marked as “Egypt Court”. Part of this was also marked as a “cooperage”. I also found some plans for the conversion of this cooperage dated 1869, and on these the existing horseshoe building to the rear of the pub is called “Egypt Square”. The Egypt Cottage is also marked on these plans.

So, to summarise so far: The 1736 map posted by NH shows neither an inn nor an area called ‘Egpyt’.

The 1802 map shows a cluster of buildings and the area is marked as “Egypt”. These buildings have gone on the 1808 map, but reappear as a different shape on the 1827 map. They are also there on Oliver’s map of 1831, and the area is again marked as ‘Egypt’.

The pub is first listed in a directory from 1838 as the Egypt Cottage – which would stillmake it a contender for Newcastle’s oldest pub, but I think the Duke of Wellington pips it. It’s listed in a directory from 1822, when a Mary Ann Johnson held the license.

The rebuilding plans from 1873 show an Egypt Court/Square behind the pub.

So there’s still no sign of the “Egypt Inn” that Brian Bennison says was certainly there in the early eighteenth century. But more annoyingly, I can’t recall how I verified this, twenty-five years ago. It doesn’t help that the Central Library no longer have any references in their index system to either the pub or the area. But I used to have a ‘Northumbria Room’ ticket back then, so it’s likely I had a good rummage around behind the scenes myself, as Brian would have been able to do. Sadly, you can’t do this any more.

I’ve run out of ideas, and may have to concede that on the evidence in front of me, the pub dates from around 1838. This still doesn’t explain how it or the area got its name, the waters having been muddied by NP’s discovery of a source that disputes Charleton’s claim that it was named after some temporary granaries built in 1796.