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An odd question- does anyone have any idea quite where the end of Hadrian's Wall was?
Looking at pictures of Segendenum I note a wall goes out from the fort down to the Tyne.
I suspect what is today a dock in the Swann Hunter site. Though I'm curious to try and nail it down exactly. Anyone heard of any Roman remains being dug up on the Swanns site?

I have a bit of a nerdy fun idea when I get a day off to try and bike/walk the actual path of the wall as best I can through the city and want to try and make sure I get it as spot on as possible. The1900 OS map is great for most but not here.

What would be a good clue, is what the original low tide line of the Tyne is around Swan Hunter. I'm guessing the actual end of Wallsend would be near enough this point.

I assume that Swan Hunter Docks is reclaimed as far out?

Couldn't find any sort of map overlay. Maybe email Segendenum and see if they have that info if no-one here can find anything
 

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An odd question- does anyone have any idea quite where the end of Hadrian's Wall was?
Looking at pictures of Segendenum I note a wall goes out from the fort down to the Tyne.
I suspect what is today a dock in the Swann Hunter site. Though I'm curious to try and nail it down exactly. Anyone heard of any Roman remains being dug up on the Swanns site?

I have a bit of a nerdy fun idea when I get a day off to try and bike/walk the actual path of the wall as best I can through the city and want to try and make sure I get it as spot on as possible. The1900 OS map is great for most but not here.
If you go to the Newcastle City Council website you'll find a page which has an interactive map of Newcastle's historic environment and conservation areas.

This link should show just the line of Hadrians Wall through Newcastle. Not sure if North Tyneside have something similar. There is a key with this map were you can also show other types of Newcastle's historic environment.


Cheers
GBDT
 

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There's this:

Wallsend (Segedunum) Roman Fort

Built in AD127, Segedunum was in fact part of an extension to Hadrian’s Wall, built some five years after the main construction project had begun. The original eastern terminus to the wall was instead four miles to the west at Pons Aelius in the centre of modern day Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
It could make sense on the basis that this was the last bridging point and anything to the east would have required boats to make a crossing [and is also flatter' harder to defend and because of crossing harder to reinforce].

This might also help:

http://www.hadrianswallquest.co.uk/sites/default/files/hadrianswallontyneside.pdf

which contradicts the above....

At the south-east corner of the fort can be seen remains of the ‘Branch Wall’, the very last portion of Hadrian’s Wall which ran down into the river Tyne, probably terminating in a magnificent monument to commemorate the decision of the emperor Hadrian to build the Wall. East of Wallsend the Tyne was wide enough to make a wall unnecessary.
This a grab from GB's map

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Which reads as if - this is as good as the archaeology gets
 

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Reading through that Hadrian's Wall quest, I found this...

"Modern excavations have recorded the Wall under Staybridge Suites (Melbourne Street) and at Garth Heads, next to the Keelmen’s Hospital. From this point west to the site of Newcastle Roman fort, under the Norman Castle keep, despite claimed sightings of the Wall-ditch at Silver Street and Painterheugh, the line of the Wall is still uncertain."

This is what I was referring to the other day in the Brett Oils thread... whether its visible, I can't remember but i'm pretty sure.

It's fairly certain that the wall ran along Westgate Road nearly exactly, back to the fort where the Keep is now. However, from Garth Heads (Sallyport Tower?) to the Keep it is a complete mystery exactly where the wall is.

I'd like to hazard a theory though.

As a direct route is too steep from Keep to Garth Heads, I'd say that the starting point of Severus Wall (the later extension of the wall from Pons Aelius to Segedunum) is not necessarily from the Keep itself, but may spring from further up Westgate Road, and follow maybe the suspiciously straight Denton Chare, and past St. Nicks to meet the route of the Town Wall at the Corner Tower. The Town Wall may have taken advantage of the Wall's foundations for that difficult stretch across Pandon dene.

I might be completely wrong of course, does anybody have any information that may give further clues to Hadrian's Wall route?
 

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Hard to be sure. GB's map shows 'bits' of the wall [though oddly not the Mining Institute bit].

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So the Garth heads etc sections align and then go straight to Sallyport tower and line up. I ve marked [I think] Denton Chare.

Some of this seems to be based on older maps with 'course of..' marked.
 

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Hard to be sure. GB's map shows 'bits' of the wall [though oddly not the Mining Institute bit].

View attachment 497927

So the Garth heads etc sections align and then go straight to Sallyport tower and line up. I ve marked [I think] Denton Chare.

Some of this seems to be based on older maps with 'course of..' marked.
Yeah, thats pretty spot on. You can see that Denton Chare points directly at Corner Tower.

One thing that is curious is that the construction of the CME never picked up any remains of the Wall. Maybe that poo poos my conjecture.
 

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Hard to be sure. GB's map shows 'bits' of the wall [though oddly not the Mining Institute bit].

View attachment 497927

So the Garth heads etc sections align and then go straight to Sallyport tower and line up. I ve marked [I think] Denton Chare.

Some of this seems to be based on older maps with 'course of..' marked.
The line of Hadrian's wall is based upon research done over a large number of years. It is exact as it can be because there are only few remnants of the wall left with in Newcastle. OS maps over the last 100+ years have shown the course of the wall (and vallum) were it was presumed to follow. You must remember that in the past the wall meant nothing to the city so it wasn't protected early on and most of it was built upon. Only nowadays do the council insist on archaeological surveys on sites that are on the 'course of the wall'. Any finds can then be added to our knowledge of its history.

NO, you'll probably find that any remnants of a wall (if it went on that line) would have been destroyed long before the CME was thought about.

As a footnote, I must own up to being the person in planning who plotted the data on that map! 😎

Cheers
GBDT
 

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The line of Hadrian's wall is based upon research done over a large number of years. It is exact as it can be because there are only few remnants of the wall left with in Newcastle. OS maps over the last 100+ years have shown the course of the wall (and vallum) were it was presumed to follow. You must remember that in the past the wall meant nothing to the city so it wasn't protected early on and most of it was built upon. Only nowadays do the council insist on archaeological surveys on sites that are on the 'course of the wall'. Any finds can then be added to our knowledge of its history.

NO, you'll probably find that any remnants of a wall (if it went on that line) would have been destroyed long before the CME was thought about.

As a footnote, I must own up to being the person in planning who plotted the data on that map! 😎

Cheers
GBDT
It's [email protected]@dy superb as a resource, well done, take a bow 👏
 

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I'd like to hazard a theory though.

As a direct route is too steep from Keep to Garth Heads, I'd say that the starting point of Severus Wall (the later extension of the wall from Pons Aelius to Segedunum) is not necessarily from the Keep itself, but may spring from further up Westgate Road, and follow maybe the suspiciously straight Denton Chare, and past St. Nicks to meet the route of the Town Wall at the Corner Tower. The Town Wall may have taken advantage of the Wall's foundations for that difficult stretch across Pandon dene.

I might be completely wrong of course, does anybody have any information that may give further clues to Hadrian's Wall route?
Ok, you had this map didn't you, I mean you must have, or you're the secret archaeologist...

So, OS map 1914, Newcastle and Gateshead.

Hadrian's wall appears top right, it runs under Garth Heads, Sallyport Tower [Wall Knoll], ambles across to the viaduct at the top of Manor Chare [is it safe to assume they did some digging there building the arch?], crosses to the north Side of St Nick's at the edge of the graveyard and then takes a slight kink by the front door to the S of that victoria monument....then......
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wait for the drum roll..... it runs along Denton Chare for about 2/3 of it's length then turns towards Westgate Rd running under Revolution and St Johns...[it's the dotted line].
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Now there are some questions as there is supposedly wall at the edge of Neville Hall which is to the south of the dotted line.

Interestngly the Vallum is shown as being to the S, behind the hotel and under the station. It continues towards the S of Castle Garth before appearing to disappear just to the S of the Moot Hall.

So if the line is right so are you, and if the line continued to the end of Denton Chare it would align with the Neville Hall finds.
 

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Ok, you had this map didn't you, I mean you must have, or you're the secret archaeologist...

So, OS map 1914, Newcastle and Gateshead.

Hadrian's wall appears top right, it runs under Garth Heads, Sallyport Tower [Wall Knoll], ambles across to the viaduct at the top of Manor Chare [is it safe to assume they did some digging there building the arch?], crosses to the north Side of St Nick's at the edge of the graveyard and then takes a slight kink by the front door to the S of that victoria monument....then......
View attachment 499184

wait for the drum roll..... it runs along Denton Chare for about 2/3 of it's length then turns towards Westgate Rd running under Revolution and St Johns...[it's the dotted line].
View attachment 499185

Now there are some questions as there is supposedly wall at the edge of Neville Hall which is to the south of the dotted line.

Interestngly the Vallum is shown as being to the S, behind the hotel and under the station. It continues towards the S of Castle Garth before appearing to disappear just to the S of the Moot Hall.

So if the line is right so are you, and if the line continued to the end of Denton Chare it would align with the Neville Hall finds.
Hahaha!

I don't rule out the possibility i've already seen this map, and my subconscious was guiding my earlier logic.

I think tracing the route of the wall is a fascinating, almost philosophical exercise. I mean, how do you find something you absolutely cannot see?

Its a bit like how astronomers look for exoplanets- you don't look for the planets themselves, rather the affect of those planets on the things you can see.

So, even though the Wall has been completely obliterated, there may be a way to look for the 'shadows in the cave' by scrutinising the street plan of Newcastle. 'May' being the operative word, because GBDT's excellent work and NCC Planning clearly know far more than me and my 'armchair science', but all I wished was to look at this from another angle.

Denton Chare looks unusually straight, and it is right next to a Roman road. Plus, the course of the Town Wall from Corner Tower, to Sallyport, is a bit weird, and the Sallyport was always the weakest point in the Walls (hence sallyforth here when under siege) maybe because it was taking advantage of a route already plotted? Now, by Norman times, Hadrian's wall was likely looted of its stones in entirety and so couldn't have been used as a section of the Town Wall, but needless to say, there would have been a route with a foundation/ or disturbed earth a Norman Town Wall builder may have wanted to take advantage of, especially when you have to negotiate a few peaks and troughs of denes as the drain into the Tyne.

Also, when you factor in the wall was built in two separate stages- which means they were designed in two separate stages, doesn't mean the the later wall started actually at the Pons Aelius fort? It could have been taken further up on the top of the bank. I'm not saying it has to be this way, more politely challenging the assumption. I'm probably wrong, as the Garth Heads route does indeed point directly at the Fort location, just interesting to muse.
 

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An odd question- does anyone have any idea quite where the end of Hadrian's Wall was?
Looking at pictures of Segendenum I note a wall goes out from the fort down to the Tyne.
I suspect what is today a dock in the Swann Hunter site. Though I'm curious to try and nail it down exactly. Anyone heard of any Roman remains being dug up on the Swanns site?

I have a bit of a nerdy fun idea when I get a day off to try and bike/walk the actual path of the wall as best I can through the city and want to try and make sure I get it as spot on as possible. The1900 OS map is great for most but not here.
Couple of photographs taken in Swans Yard 30 September 2011.

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500213
 

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Hahaha!

I don't rule out the possibility i've already seen this map, and my subconscious was guiding my earlier logic.

I think tracing the route of the wall is a fascinating, almost philosophical exercise. I mean, how do you find something you absolutely cannot see?

Its a bit like how astronomers look for exoplanets- you don't look for the planets themselves, rather the affect of those planets on the things you can see.

So, even though the Wall has been completely obliterated, there may be a way to look for the 'shadows in the cave' by scrutinising the street plan of Newcastle. 'May' being the operative word, because GBDT's excellent work and NCC Planning clearly know far more than me and my 'armchair science', but all I wished was to look at this from another angle.

Denton Chare looks unusually straight, and it is right next to a Roman road. Plus, the course of the Town Wall from Corner Tower, to Sallyport, is a bit weird, and the Sallyport was always the weakest point in the Walls (hence sallyforth here when under siege) maybe because it was taking advantage of a route already plotted? Now, by Norman times, Hadrian's wall was likely looted of its stones in entirety and so couldn't have been used as a section of the Town Wall, but needless to say, there would have been a route with a foundation/ or disturbed earth a Norman Town Wall builder may have wanted to take advantage of, especially when you have to negotiate a few peaks and troughs of denes as the drain into the Tyne.

Also, when you factor in the wall was built in two separate stages- which means they were designed in two separate stages, doesn't mean the the later wall started actually at the Pons Aelius fort? It could have been taken further up on the top of the bank. I'm not saying it has to be this way, more politely challenging the assumption. I'm probably wrong, as the Garth Heads route does indeed point directly at the Fort location, just interesting to muse.
Just saying.. Remains of Hadrian's Wall were found underneatrh Coopers Motor Mart on Westgate Road.i.e south of Denton Chare.

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Always great to hear from you Steve!

My guess was that the original Pons Aelius terminating wall would run to the fort now at the castle keep (as shown by the remains found at Mining Inst. and Coopers as you show), but the 'Severus Wall', the later addition that terminates at Wallsend, links not at the fort, but at Denton Chare end and North of the Cathedral to Corner Tower.

So when both walls were completed, then Pons Aelius would have been slightly off from the defensive line, but thats not unusual, I think Carlisle fort was some way south of the actual wall too.

Again, I may be completely wrong!
 

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Fleming Memorial Hospital for Sick Children

Does anyone know the history of this shelter on the corner of Clayton Road and the Great North Road?
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Fleming Memorial Hospital for Sick Children

Does anyone know the history of this shelter on the corner of Clayton Road and the Great North Road?

There is an inscription stone inside which states "This shelter - the gift of Stanley Miller intended for the use of patients and their parents visiting the Fleming Memorial Hospital for Sick Children MCMXXVIII"

It seems likely that this shelter has been repositioned from a different location. It has no clear relationship with the former hospital which has been converted into a business centre. LOCAL LIST
 

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Fleming Memorial Hospital for Sick Children Shelter & adjacent W D Stephens Memorial, junction of Great North Rd and Clayton Rd, Newcastle

Further to recent posts

Screen print of Google Maps and Street View images showing location of the shelter & adjacent W D Stephens Memorial, junction of Great North rd and Clayton Rd, Newcastle in relationship to the former Fleming Memorial Hospital for Sick Children, now Fleming Court, some approx 200m away

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My pictures from 01/07/15 of W D Stephens Memorial

From Newcastle, Great North Road, W.D. Stephens Fountain

EXTRACT

Tyne and Wear HER(5216): Newcastle, Great North Road, W.D. Stephens Fountain - Details

Description:

Drinking fountain circa 1901. Signed by Marshall and Tweedy, architects and W. Donaldson, sculptor. In memory of W.D. Stephen 1827-1901, mayor and sheriff of Newcastle, promoter of maritime commerce and temperance and the welfare of the poor. Erected by public subscription. Sandstone ashlar and pink granite with bronze roundel; cast iron railings. Tall sandstone panel, with scrolled date panel in broken pediment, has garland swags to pediment and to flanking high obelisks on deeply moulded plinths. Low flat-coped walls at each side have iron balustrades. Granite basin beneath inscription in main panel with round plaque. The panel above the inscription was clearly intended for the display of a sculpted ornament, probably the bronze roundel identified in the List description. There is now no trace of the roundel. The fixing holes have been filled with concrete. LISTED GRADE 2

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More on Colvill Fountain

EXTRACT

In memory of William Davies Stephens 1827-1901, mayor and sheriff of Newcastle, methodist and temperance reformer. He started out in business with a chemical firm, Hugh Lee Pattinson & Co, and later developed the Tyne Steam Shipping Co. with William Laing.

Initially in January 1906 the Stephens memorial committee considered erecting a monument in Newgate Street, where the medieval White Cross had been. The present site was chosen in September 1907.

Unfortunately this meant moving the Colvill fountain which stood on the site further north to Forsyth Road. The advantage, however, was that the Stephens fountain was now close to Stephens's former home and 'those magnificent institutions on the Moor Edge in which Alderman Stephens took such a deep interest, and in whose welfare he took such an active part during his lifetime.'

With the building of the East Central Motorway the fountain had to be moved again some twenty feet, which cost £1,000


On the same website link is information about the Fleming Memorial Hospital Patients Shelter - but nothing about its relocation

KEN
 
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