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There are now serious plans for electrification of many more lines across the uk, the one im looking forward to is the liverpool to manchester line, which might use the class 319's when thameslink gets their new trains :D

BBC NEWS
Thursday 23rd July 2009

£1bn plan to electrify rail line

Diesel trains currently operate on the Great Western Main Line
A £1bn plan to electrify the main rail route between London and Swansea has been announced by the government.

A second line between Liverpool and Manchester will also be converted from diesel to electric.

Ministers say electric trains are lighter and more energy efficient, cutting the running cost and environmental impact of train services.

The Conservatives welcomed the move but said the government was leaving the taxpayer to foot the bill.

Upfront investment

Transport Secretary Lord Adonis told the BBC the massive investment involved would be worth it.

"With the electric trains you get a quieter, cleaner, more reliable and much cheaper train which benefits passengers and it also benefits the taxpayers because it's much cheaper to keep an electric railway going," he said.


Electric trains are quieter, cleaner, more reliable and cheaper, says Lord Adonis
"But you've got to put that upfront investment in. Governments historically have been very averse to making long-term investments.

"We've taken the decision that the right thing for the country is to have an electrified railway across the principal main lines and that's why we're going ahead with electrifying the Great Western Main Line."

He said the investment would pay for itself over a 40-year period and that there would be no impact on fares.

'Greener and cleaner'

Prime Minister Gordon Brown, at London's Paddington station for the announcement, said improving the rail network was important for the country.




Electric rail 'boost for service'
Minimum disruption promised
"This is the future. It's greener, it's cleaner, it's faster, it's more reliable. It's making the railways fit for the 21st Century and encouraging more passengers to use the railways," he said.

The move means an electric version of the new Super Express intercity train unveiled last year will be introduced on the Great Western line.

The government and rail industry agree electrification will bring major benefits.

Electric trains do not carry their own fuel - weighing around six tonnes for a non-electric intercity train - and have lighter engines.

Network Rail will buy specialist electrification trains capable of automating the installation job.

The Campaign for Better Transport is concerned the investment will lead to an increase in fares but ministers say electrification will mean cost savings in the running of trains.

'Transport cuts'

Shadow transport secretary Theresa Villiers said: "Yet again Labour are maxing out Network Rail's credit card, leaving the taxpayer to foot the bill.

"After [Business Secretary] Lord Mandelson announced cuts to the transport budget, how can we believe that Labour can announce £1.1bn of new spending without impacting on existing transport commitments or putting further strain on public finances already stretched to breaking point?"


Six tonnes of fuel and eight miles to the gallon: Why diesel trains are being consigned to history
Liberal Democrat transport spokesman Norman Baker said: "This must be just the start of the project. The Liberal Democrats want virtually the entire network electrified by 2040."

Plaid Cymru welcomed the electrification, and claimed it followed its pressure to change plans to electrify the track between London and Bristol only.

South West Wales AM Dai Lloyd said the change followed "an immense amount of work" by party leader Ieuan Wyn Jones, who is also transport minister in the Welsh Assembly Government.

The RMT rail union has called for "cast iron" assurances from the government that the decision will not hit jobs at the UK's only train manufacturer, Bombardier.

The Derby-based firm has bid for a contract to build 200 diesel trains, some planned to be used on the Great Western line, against rivals from Spain and China.

The union's general secretary, Bob Crow, said: "RMT welcomes today's announcement on electrification and is calling on the government to do some joined-up thinking and ensure that there is no risk at all to Bombardier from the expected cancellation of diesel orders.

"There is no reason why Bombardier can't produce rolling stock for the electrified lines as well as meeting demand from the overall expansion of rail services and the call to end overcrowding."

League table

Britain went through a period of electrification between the 50s and 80s in which two other main lines, the East and West, were converted.

Many commuter lines into London from the home counties are also electrified, using a third rail system rather than overhead cables.

EUROPE'S ELECTRIC RAIL COVER
Switzerland: 100%
Sweden: 77%
Netherlands: 73%
Italy: 69%
Germany: 56%
Spain: 56%
UK: 40%
Source: UIC
But Britain still has proportionally less electric railway than most European countries and is below Macedonia in the league table.

The announcement means Wales will have its first stretch of electrified railway.

Between Manchester and Liverpool a smaller project to electrify the line via Newton-le-Willows has also been given the green light.

This will have the added benefit of allowing Transpennine trains between Manchester airport and Glasgow to run on electric power.

The government is still considering electrifying another major diesel route, the Midland Main Line between London and Sheffield, but has not committed the proposal.
 

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The main reason why the government do not agree with your opinion on this is that the longer distance trains have to carry more diesel fuel for the longer journeys, so they are heavier and more inefficient than urban trains carrying less fuel.

On some of the main line routes, platforms are too short to allow for longer trains so the move to electric trains would enable more passengers to be carried in the same number of coaches. This is the case with some of the Midland Main Line stations north of Bedford, but this has not been approved for electrification yet.

However:

In the West Midlands Rail strategy, there is some talk of electrifying some more of the urban commuter routes - particularly where the trains are at capacity and it is difficult to extend the platforms because of geography. This would obviously have strong environmental benefits in a city.

It's really up to local PTAs/PTEs to make the case on a line by line basis. Arguments will be stronger if the route could also be used for a by-pass route for electric main line trains during periods of engineering works.
 

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I remember Liverpool - Manchester (via CLC) electrification being proposed, in regional planning documents, since the late 1960s/early 1970s. I'll believe it when I see the actual structures in place.

PTEs/PTAs managed ok to electrify prior to privatisation, thats what stalled further wiring up.

GM: Hadfield/Glossop DC>AC conversion, Hazel Grove, Manchester Airport
WM: CrossCity (Lichfield - Redditch)
Merseyside: Hunts Cross, Chester/Ellesmere Port
WY: Airedale, Wharfedale routes.
 

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The dilemna for the PTAs/PTEs is whether to prioritise the electrification over other projects. Money can only be spent once!

In the West Midlands, the elecrification agenda is having to compete with enhancing car parking at stations, and building two important chords at Camp hill to enable two new commuter routes to be opened up
 

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I think the most heavily used routes that would benefit the most from electrification should be electrified.

That is precisely what they are doing.
I think it is more for political purposes. Electric urban rail will attract more passengers, be very busy and less pollution in urban areas.
 

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I think it is more for political purposes. Electric urban rail will attract more passengers, be very busy and less pollution in urban areas.
You've obviously decided that on a hunch. Well let me tell you actually what is going on.

The Great West Mainline last had a comprehensive renewal in the late 70s. It is due for a large programme of track renewals, this was about to happen anyway. The trains currently running the route were also about 30 years old and were due to be replaced. It was decided that now was a good opportunity to electrify the route whilst the renewals are done, and that means the new trains that will be bought can be electric instead of diesel.

FYI the GWML is going to get electric urban services in the process, on top of the ones that Crossrail will provide.
 

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The GWML was a bit of a no brainer. The intercity trains on that route are, as you say, 30 years old and due for replacement under the IEP programme. Were the line not to be electrified the government would have had to buy diesel IEP trains for the route instead of the electric ones now on order.

Diesel trains entering service in 2015ish and having a 30 year lifespan. Anyone care to guess at the price of diesel fuel in 2045?

This was a decision based on logic and politics, not on hobby horses or that which gives metro enthusiasts a warm feeling inside.
 

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The GWML was a bit of a no brainer. The intercity trains on that route are, as you say, 30 years old and due for replacement under the IEP programme. Were the line not to be electrified the government would have had to buy diesel IEP trains for the route instead of the electric ones now on order.

Diesel trains entering service in 2015ish and having a 30 year lifespan. Anyone care to guess at the price of diesel fuel in 2045?

This was a decision based on logic and politics, not on hobby horses or that which gives metro enthusiasts a warm feeling inside.
On the GWML, replacing the track is a separate issue as diesel or electric can run on it. The passenger cars can be replaced and when electrified use the same cars, so again a separate issue. It is only the loco which changes on the train. When the economy was more sound then this line could be electrified with the track and new passenger cars already having been replaced.

Electrified urban rail is the natural priority. This reduces pollution in urban areas. It improves services considerably taking cars off he road, improving the quality life of many people. Changing from diesel to electric on the GW will not attract more passengers or make the journey any better or faster. The passengers don't know any different.
 

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On the GWML, replacing the track is a separate issue as diesel or electric can run on it. The passenger cars can be replaced and when electrified use the same cars, so again a separate issue. It is only the loco which changes on the train. When the economy was more sound then this line could be electrified with the track and new passenger cars already having been replaced.

Electrified urban rail is the natural priority. This reduces pollution in urban areas. It improves services considerably taking cars off he road, improving the quality life of many people. Changing from diesel to electric on the GW will not attract more passengers or make the journey any better or faster. The passengers don't know any different.
Well no because Locomotive pulled intercity trains are going out of fashion in favour for bugger EMU's. Also the GWML is a major route, London to Bristol to Cardiff.

For example, my favourite Train. The Japanese Shinkansen 500


The Chinese CRH3


The German ICE 3


A large Flightless Bird
 

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On the GWML, replacing the track is a separate issue as diesel or electric can run on it.
Yep, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Replacing track and electrification are not separate issues as they both require the line to be closed in successive sections over its entire length.

Therefore both can be done for one closure, and one set of penalty payments to the TOCs.

Also the line needs resignalling at the same time.

The passenger cars can be replaced and when electrified use the same cars, so again a separate issue. It is only the loco which changes on the train.
Yes, you really have no idea what you are talking about. The passenger cars are 30 years old. They need replacing, they are about to be replaced. Read the previous posts.

Also, welcome to the 21st century, locos are not used anymore. All new trains are multiple units.

When the economy was more sound then this line could be electrified with the track and new passenger cars already having been replaced.
And then we would have to close the line AGAIN.

Electrified urban rail is the natural priority. This reduces pollution in urban areas. It improves services considerably taking cars off he road, improving the quality life of many people.
Yee har! You have no idea what you are talking about. The urban routes ARE being electrified. What is Crossrail? Nearly all thames valley services will be electric after this project.

Also, if you checked some stats you'll see that nearly all of the high volume urban networks in this country ARE ALREADY electrified. And in the areas which are not electrifying these in isolation assumes a mix of network traffic in the UK that doesn't exist. e.g. all of the north west to north east has fairly long distance 'urban' routes, that will need progressive electrification between Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, York and Hull.

Oh look, that is precisely what they have started doing!

Changing from diesel to electric on the GW will not attract more passengers or make the journey any better or faster. The passengers don't know any different.
Yep, you have no idea what you are talking about.

It will make the journey faster. And electrification ALWAYS engenders a passenger boost. Fact.
 

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Also Quicker Acceleration and Braking can sometimes free up extra Train Paths, now if you have ever traveled on the GWML at Rush Hour you can see they are needed. It's not nice finally being able to see the famous Box Tunnel... crammed against the door in the Vestibule.
 

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Yep, you have no idea what you are talking about.
I know exactly what I am talking about.

Replacing track and electrification are not separate issues
They are. Tracks is er, er, er, track. Both can run on it. Do you know that?

Signalling will come about on electrification.

The track can be replaced and the passenger cars replaced as the first two stages. When more money is available, electrification and signalling as the frequency should be higher with electric trains. That is easy to understand. You never understood it.

When money is short, priorities have to be listed and full electrification of the GW should not be high on the list. Urban rail is the priority not some vanity project.
 
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