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What was Hadrians wall original course through Newcastle?

- Newcastle Arts Centre milecastle 4
- Remains by Lit and Phil. Not 100% on this, but seem to remember seeing a plaque or remains of the wall at this location
- Trial at car park adjacent to Dean Street with no evidence found
- Speculative location adjacent to Sallyport Tower
- Trial pit near Gibson Street found remains
- Remains found under recently built hotel
- 1920s archeological dig found evidence around ouseburn but not at far right location as speculated

So im willing to guess that like Westgate road, HW route may have been continued by the street patterns of the town.

Denton Chare via cathedral (which may have been established on HW foundations, to low bridge follow a roman like straight line through the centre. It is speculated that HW route bends down further south, to meet the fort, however the fort required space for troops to vacate, so my logic is that there should be ample space between the wall and the ridge top of the tyne gorge to allow soldiers to alight the fort.

Any thoughts on this guys would be greatly appreciated. Newcastle in Hadrians wall has a globally significant find within our city. And i personally dont think we highlight it enough. Tracing a better idea of the route would go a long way to helping Newcastle in its global and regional identity
A lot to think about there and the course of Hadrian's Wall through the City centre has been a matter of much discussion and debate.

As you will know before the discovery of Mile Castle 4 it was thought the wall was further towards the north of Westgate Road.

The remains at the Lit and Phil have been discussed on the forum before and a search will provide (if I remember correctly) a nice early photograph of a couple of workers standing in a trench outside the building with a section of what is claimed to be Hadrian's Wall exposed. There are plans to expose the wall here and have it as a feature for visitors to see the remains via a perspex screen.

Also discussed on the forum before was the discoveries during the archaeological dig at Melbourne Street/Gibson Street where a 13m section of the foundations of the wall were located together with other evidence of its alignment.

Was looking through Archaeologia Aeliana 1st Series, Vol. 1, 1822 and noted these observations concerning the discovery of walls in Collingwood Street which may have been part Hadrian's Wall.

Mr. Ventress has favoured us with notes of his observations to the following effect : On May 17, 1852, the labourers of the Water Company, in laying down pipes in the centre of Collingwood-street, at 92 feet from its east end, came upon a piece of Roman wall at right angles to the street, and 2 feet 1 1 inches in thickness. At 50 feet nearer to the east end of the same street another Boman wall, 6 feet 6 inches thick, -was found running in the same direction.

Dr. Bruce inspected these remains.

On 23 Dec. 1853, a drain from the Turf Hotel, leading across Collingwood-street, was renewed, and at 18 feet from the front of the hotel, and 121 feet from the east end of the street, Mr. Ventress saw the outside face of a piece of Roman wall. It was running diagonally in the street, S.W. to N. E., and striking for the angle of the Cloth -market and Mosley-street. The cut was about 4 feet wide, and that distance of wall was seen. The depth from the street pavement to the base of the wall was 9 feet. The wall had six courses of stones, the bottom one projecting 2 inches, and the entire thickness of the wall at its base was 9 feet. Mr. White was present.
The inner face of the wall is visible in one of the cellar apartments of the fish-shop in Collingwood-street.

On the following day, the Gas Company made a trench 16 inches wide and 20 inches deep, at 18 feet west of Mr. Gibson's Bank Buildings, and cut through a wall 9 feet thick, the southern face of which was 16 feet 4 inches north of the railing which surrounds the church of St. Nicholas. This wall was laid upon rough quarried flags about 4 inches thick. It appeared to be running to a point between Collingwood- street and Denton-chare ; but in so circumscribed an excavation, it was
difficult to ascertain the precise bearing. Mr. V. has one of the facing-stones. If this was the great wall, its course will be rather more to the north than that laid down by Mr. Maclauchlan in his Survey of the Barrier.

The foundations of the new Town-hall Buildings are laid in virgin clay, without a trace of disturbance or occupation, save a framework of wood to the north end of them, supposed to have been connected with a well, as water was plentiful at that place.

No remains have been observed in draining Westgate-street and Puddingchare, but the partial use of a drift in the latter may have concealed the great wall.

It is possible that Horsley's line of wall from the east may be that of the military way. Just north of the ancient passage formerly gained by the Nether Dene Bridge, in Dean -street, appearances of a side wall of Roman masonry were observed in 1852, possibly in connection with a viaduct there. (Eon plan.) All relics of the great wall at its presumed passage over the dean had long disappeared, for the remains of old English buildings of brick had substituted themselves.
 

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Hadrian's Wall through Newcastle upon Tyne

I am sure there are some stones in the Westgate Road, Newcastle Art Centre courtyard at the bottom of the stairs there.

I have some pictures.

Story was there was some building work being carried and the stone was rescued from a builders skip!

The line of the wall would have been straight up Westgate Road, Westgate Hill, the West Road towards the still visible remains next to Solomons Indian Restaurant at Denton Burn, then onto the next remains at Denton Circle just off the A69.
 

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I am sure there are some stones in the Westgate Road, Newcastle Art Centre courtyard at the bottom of the stairs there.
Yes, we discussed that a while back on the forum, at the "link" entitled Milecastles - On the Roman Wall in Newcastle, about two thirds of the way down the list of links reproduced below . . .

..R
Ro - Rz

Ro

ROMAN SITES IN NEWCASTLE & THE NORTH EAST, INCLUDING THE ROMAN WALL / HADRIANS WALL . . .

Roman Wall - Roman tablets go on show at Vindolanda
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=74321513&postcount=99
Hidden Areas of Hadrians Wall
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=93140216&postcount=3000
Segedunum - An Exhibition about its discovery and the diggings that took place from 1975
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=94571831&postcount=3114
Segedunum (from) to the Spanish City - A BOOK by Keith Armstrong and Peter Dixon
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=52700173&postcount=35
The Roman Wall through Central and Suburban Newcastle
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=82962029&postcount=1516
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=82970062&postcount=1522
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=82976862&postcount=1523
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=82980037&postcount=1527
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=82991128&postcount=1528
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=82991401&postcount=1529
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=82991666&postcount=1530
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=101984780&postcount=3657
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=102092209&postcount=3661
Roman Temple of Antenociticus at Condercum - Benwell
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=94603408&postcount=3115
Illuminating the line of Hadrians Wall, in 2010
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=53381913&postcount=71
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=53410309&postcount=72
Milecastles - On the Roman Wall in Newcastle
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=50553853&postcount=1192
Arbeia Roman Fort and Museum, South Shields
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=93788863&postcount=320
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=93789045&postcount=321
Roman Camp in North Shields
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=98984670&postcount=316
Culverts and Bridges for ancient 'Burns' (Streams) that ran under the Roman Wall in Newcastle
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=94611429&postcount=314
.
 

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I'm sure there was some of part of the wall discovered / preserved in the basement of the Coopers building, further along Westgate Road towards Castle Keep from Lit & Phil. There is something to that effect written on the windows of the Coopers building.

http://*************************/newcastle/coopers_studios.htm

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/professional/advice/conservation-principles/constructive-conservation/constructive-conservation-in-practice/coopers-studios/
Another case of "I never knew that" - certainly puts the report that I posted this morning about the wall being located in Collingwood Street in the shade.

Found this on the Newcastle City Planning Portal:

Reference 2007/1754/06/DCC
Alternative Reference Not Available
Application Received Wed 05 May 2010
Address 14-18 Westgate Road Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 3NN
Proposal Submission of details of interpretation of discovery of remains of Hadrian's Wall, as amended by panel received 14.09.2010 to comply with condition 10 of permission 2007/1754/01/DET dated 21.09.2007: Change of use from car rental (sui generis) to offices (Class B1) and external alterations to front elevation including shopfront, full height frameless glazing, infilling with brickwork, extension to roof to form plant room and lift shaft extension to rear.
Status Grant

http://publicaccess.newcastle.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=L1YD84BS09700

This was the consented HADRIAN'S WALL INTERPRETATION PANEL



Anyone interested in the archaeological assessment and report on this site it can still be seen on the main PA @ http://publicaccess.newcastle.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=JM379VBS08B00
 

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Guys, esp. Newcastle Historian for transferring this q to this thread and steve for digging up evidence through the planning portal thank you! Its really insightful to get your opinions as it is larger a matter of conjecture. I have trawled through the archives on the forum and found pretty much all the evidence i put in my previous post, however i may have missed or glossed over some important points so i will review when i have the time.

It would be fascinating to hypothesise as to what the 1822 discoveries were. I wouldnt like to say past historians are so poor that they would misread what is roman construction and what is not, but the evidence by the dig at coopers it seems that is more likely the case. Either that or the wall turns sharply North from the coopers site! Perhaps unlikely as no evidence was found around the old town hall. I cannot see how a roman structure of 9 foot thick would be found North of the wall? Unless it was the fort that projected north of the wall, connected at its southern side, again, unlikely.
 

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Mystery surrounds a 90-year-old map recently found.
By Joanne Butcher, The Chronicle, 9th April 2013



TUCKED AWAY in a drawer, this map hasn’t been seen for decades. Chronicle reader Christine Endleton was fascinated when she discovered the 90-year-old document hidden under her belongings. Now she is appealing for other people to help shed some light on why it was produced. Christine can’t remember how she came to own the ‘Newcastle Chronicle Map of the North Country’, which is printed on a cloth.

It had sat forgotten in the back of a drawer in her home in Low Fell, Gateshead, for years, but she came across it while doing a spring clean, and got in touch with us in the hope other readers would know more about it. According to text on the map, it was produced in 1923 by W & AK Johnston Ltd in Edinburgh, Scotland for Newcastle Chronicle Publications. It lists the Evening Chronicle alongside the Newcastle Daily Chronicle, Illustrated Chronicle, North Mail, Sporting Man and Weekly Chronicle. Despite being 90 years old, the colour map is in remarkably good condition, giving a glimpse into how the North East used to look.

It shows a distinctly smaller Newcastle and Gateshead – in those days, areas like Felling, Swalwell and Blakelaw were completely separate villages, rather than the urban spread we know now.



Christine has no idea whether the map was given away in the paper, or sold separately. The Chronicle’s archive has no record of the map, but auctioneers Railtons in Wooler, Northumberland, have seen similar documents come through their sale rooms. If you can shed light on the history of the map, call the Chronicle on
0191 201 6455.


Read More - http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/chronicle-reader-finds-newcastle-chronicle-2573539
 

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Another case of "I never knew that" - certainly puts the report that I posted this morning about the wall being located in Collingwood Street in the shade.

Found this on the Newcastle City Planning Portal:

Reference 2007/1754/06/DCC
Alternative Reference Not Available
Application Received Wed 05 May 2010
Address 14-18 Westgate Road Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 3NN
Proposal Submission of details of interpretation of discovery of remains of Hadrian's Wall, as amended by panel received 14.09.2010 to comply with condition 10 of permission 2007/1754/01/DET dated 21.09.2007: Change of use from car rental (sui generis) to offices (Class B1) and external alterations to front elevation including shopfront, full height frameless glazing, infilling with brickwork, extension to roof to form plant room and lift shaft extension to rear.
Status Grant

http://publicaccess.newcastle.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=L1YD84BS09700

This was the consented HADRIAN'S WALL INTERPRETATION PANEL



Anyone interested in the archaeological assessment and report on this site it can still be seen on the main PA @ http://publicaccess.newcastle.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=JM379VBS08B00
Guys, esp. Newcastle Historian for transferring this q to this thread and steve for digging up evidence through the planning portal thank you! Its really insightful to get your opinions as it is larger a matter of conjecture. I have trawled through the archives on the forum and found pretty much all the evidence i put in my previous post, however i may have missed or glossed over some important points so i will review when i have the time.

It would be fascinating to hypothesise as to what the 1822 discoveries were. I wouldnt like to say past historians are so poor that they would misread what is roman construction and what is not, but the evidence by the dig at coopers it seems that is more likely the case. Either that or the wall turns sharply North from the coopers site! Perhaps unlikely as no evidence was found around the old town hall. I cannot see how a roman structure of 9 foot thick would be found North of the wall? Unless it was the fort that projected north of the wall, connected at its southern side, again, unlikely.
The information and map is on the window adjacent to the main entrance into the Coopers building. I took these last night having thought I already had some, but failed to find them. The text is a bit hard to read but I can do a transcript if anyone wants....and the map similar to one Steve already found on the planning portal, apart from the hypothesis of the route continues to the castle rather than a question mark.



 

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Where in Newcastle City Centre can be seen the earliest Church?

I have always understood St Andrews Church (or, 'The Parish Church of St Andrew") on Newgate Street in the City Centre, to be the oldest church in all Newcastle.

I think the earliest parts of it date from the 12th Century.

However, I have never been any kind of expert on churches, interesting buildings though they are, and the sort of knowledge I have of them is just acquired knowledge (almost 'subconsciously') over the years reading books etc, rather than actual specifically researched knowledge.

So, for that reason (and because of the way the question is phrased!!) I bet I am wrong!!
 

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I have always understood St Andrews Church (or, 'The Parish Church of St Andrew") on Newgate Street in the City Centre, to be the oldest church in all Newcastle.

I think the earliest parts of it date from the 12th Century.

However, I have never been any kind of expert on churches, interesting buildings though they are, and the sort of knowledge I have of them is just acquired knowledge (almost 'subconsciously') over the years reading books etc, rather than actual specifically researched knowledge.

So, for that reason (and because of the way the question is phrased!!) I bet I am wrong!!
That's what I would say is 'conventional thinking' NH - no not St Andrews.

I want to say St Andrews but I believe it's a trick question.
Not a trick question - its there for all to see and visit.

From the top of the monument, you can see Durham cathedral? Just a daft guess mind.
Would have to be a very clear day - would have thought the hills to the south of Gateshead would have cut out the line of sight?

Could be onto something there, wonder if you can see St Peters at Monkwearmouth from there?
No you can see and visit the church in the City Centre.
 

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Take a look underneath the Victorian arches in an ancient area of the City Centre and all will be revealed.
Under the arches by the castle keep there are various ruins, mostly i believe of the remains of the castle walls. I didn't realise there was a church there.

Seen as Newcastle was only really (re)inhabitated from around 1000s then a 'church' could only have been built after that, anything earlier than that would have been attached to the monks of monkchester, and been saxon in origin, and probably a chapel, not a church.

St. Andrew's Church was built in the early 1100's, within say 50 years of the building of the 'New'castle. I've always found it odd how such a church would have been built that distant from the old centre and so vunerable before the town walls were built?

St. Nicholas church had predecessors but i'm sure none of that remains, perhaps a few bits of rubble under the present cathedral.

As christian churches are based upon a combination of roman basillicas, houses and temples. I would argue that the roman remains at benwell constitute a proto-church :nuts:

The earliest city centre worship related artefact would be the roman shrine by pons aelius? Admittedly, not a church!

Does anything remain of St. Thomas chapel by the medieval bridge, as i have seen on this forum some of the arches survive
 

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the railway arches by the castle keep....
I am getting desperate.
Yes that's right, so hope your desperation is at an end :)

Its the existence of the footing of a tower purporting to be from an Anglo Saxon Church that can be seen under the Victorian rail viaduct to the north western corner of the Castle Keep.

We did have this on the forum back in November 2011, so it obviously didn't stick in anyone's mind - check out these postings @
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=85431557&postcount=2594

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=85432775&postcount=2595

These are images of the Saxon Church :




Images hosted on www.steve-ellwood.org.uk

The Roman fort was used as a cemetery (first grave cut in the 8th century) in the years following the departure of the Roman Army.

The 1990 did also came to the conclusion that on site there had been a pair of churches, one dating from the 10th century and being of simple rectangular construction. This was replaced by a church with a western tower measuring 22m by 4.5m and that the two buildings stood next to each other, end to end.
(source : Digging Deeper - The Origins of Newcastle and Gatreshead by David Heslop and Zoe McAuley).
 

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^^

That was an interesting, and LONG, quiz item!!

It has provided us, though, with an interesting addition to our "Oldest" Section, in the Index . . .


Don't know if we have had any 'fact-containing' discussions about any other "Oldest in" . . . subjects/topics on the forum, that I have not included in the above section of the Index?

If you are aware of any, please let me have the links, Ta :)
 

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Early Christian Newcastle

The Roman fort was used as a cemetery (first grave cut in the 8th century) in the years following the departure of the Roman Army.

The 1990 did also came to the conclusion that on site there had been a pair of churches, one dating from the 10th century and being of simple rectangular construction. This was replaced by a church with a western tower measuring 22m by 4.5m and that the two buildings stood next to each other, end to end.
(source : Digging Deeper - The Origins of Newcastle and Gatreshead by David Heslop and Zoe McAuley).
Fascinating. I had not come across this before.

Given that Christianity was tolerated in the Roman Empire from 313, and Britain remained part of the Empire until 410 or thereabouts, it is likely that Christian worship first took place in 'Newcastle' in the latter part of the 4th century. There may even have been a church (in both senses of the word) there for another century or so into the post-Roman period - assuming some kind of civil settlement continued. I think there is evidence of Roman churches in the region at at Arbeia and Vindolanda.

Aidan's mission to Northumbria in the 7th Century might have been building on the memory of an earlier Christianity among an increasingly mixed Celtic-Germanic population. His 'Celtic' monastic style of mission and church organization might be responsible for the Monkchester appellation.

The Angles and Saxons were apparently often uneasy about occupying former Roman sites and preferred to dwell on their outskirts. They might have used, or reused, parts of those sites for burials especially if after their own (re-) Christianization they understood them to have had previous Christian use.

What I am suggesting is that if we have a tenth-century 'Saxon' church here, we might actually have a site that was associated with Christian worship five centuries before that. The clue will probably be in the burials.
 

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http://www.northofthetyne.co.uk/Images/Newcastle/NewcastleCastleFG.jpg

I always thought that the square under the arches was a tower with the castle walls.

What evidence did the 1990 study have that the stones are definately part of the 10th C church?

Did they speculate that the castle tower was built on the foundations of the church? or the church wall itself was incorporated?

http://www.castlekeep-newcastle.org.uk/keephistory/plan_a.htm

This shows a location for another church, if indeed your comment Steve was that the churches were 'end to end', this would seem to confirm.

The archeological dig for the cemetary indicates nothing around the castle garth, do you think this hasnt been investigated, or the fort itself may have been north of the ridge edge to the river?
 

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http://www.northofthetyne.co.uk/Images/Newcastle/NewcastleCastleFG.jpg

I always thought that the square under the arches was a tower with the castle walls.

What evidence did the 1990 study have that the stones are definately part of the 10th C church?

Did they speculate that the castle tower was built on the foundations of the church? or the church wall itself was incorporated?

http://www.castlekeep-newcastle.org.uk/keephistory/plan_a.htm

This shows a location for another church, if indeed your comment Steve was that the churches were 'end to end', this would seem to confirm.

The archeological dig for the cemetary indicates nothing around the castle garth, do you think this hasnt been investigated, or the fort itself may have been north of the ridge edge to the river?
The excavation and subsequent report by John Nolan with Barbara Harbottle appeared in Archaeologia Aeliana 5th Series Vol. 39, 2010 and perhaps you will accept the authenticity of church rather than a tower of the castle's curtain wall. John and the late Barbara are experts in their fields.

This is a plan which appears in the booklet Newcastle Castle which is the current short guide available from the Keep. You will note the remains of the church are well clear of the curtain wall any defensive tower. Also an illustration of the castle.




Scans hosted on www.steve-ellwood.org.uk

The excavation of the cemetery has in no way proved the extent to which it extends, this is restricted by the existing buildings in Castle Garth, Keep, Old County Hall, Moot Hall and Bridge Hotel. However there is a 'tale' that during groundworks in the past, skulls have been found and the consequent story that the workmen gave them to children who used them as footballs.

Tyne and Wear SiteLines has an entry @ http://www.twsitelines.info/siteline.nsf/8f71f680ce308c9a802573a80061c133/4b40b2eab0d61632802576af003e67bb!OpenDocument

Description:
A Christian cemetery occupied part of the area of the medieval castle, lying over, and probably largely within, the Roman fort of Pons Aelius. The very few artifacts recovered suggest a date of origin circa 700 AD. Stratigraphic evidence indicates the cemetery continued in use until the construction of the stone castle began in 1168. The outline of the cemetery and number of burials it contained is unclear, since no actual boundary of the graveyard has been recognised anywhere. Between 1977 and 1992 660 burials were excavated west and north of the keep, beneath and north of the railway viaduct. While some skeletons were complete others were fragmentary, cut by later graves and disturbed by large-scale developments. The burials were particularly dense on the north side of the keep, where up to six layers could be detected. Many of the graves were just holes in the ground accommodating bodies with or without shrouds. A number of burials had been contained in wooden coffins, or in wood-lined graves, and some were in long stone cists. Slots in the subsoil suggested that a few of the earliest graves had had head markers, and possibly foot markers, of stone or wood. A few burials were covered with stone slabs, mostly plain, one heavily decorated, one ribbed and one bearing a cross in relief on a re-used millstone. In a few graves the skull had a support, cover or ear-muffs of stone. All age ranges and both sexes were represented. There is at least one instance of a Roman road being kept in repair, with graves neatly arranged along its edge until the last burial in this area was cut into the road surface. It has been suggested that a building, of which fragmentary remains survived, may have been a church, possibly rebuilt after the Conquest. It appears that the cemetery went out of use before, or possibly contemporaneously with, the construction of the stone castle in 1168-78. The parish church of St. Nicholas, to the north of the castle, may have replaced the church or chapel in the castle garth. SCHEDULED ANCIENT MONUMENT
 

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The Angles and Saxons were apparently often uneasy about occupying former Roman sites and preferred to dwell on their outskirts. They might have used, or reused, parts of those sites for burials especially if after their own (re-) Christianization they understood them to have had previous Christian use.
Perhaps uneasy but it was quite common for abandoned Roman forts to be re-employed as enclosures for monasteries, churches and cemeteries.

Thinking here about Reculver, Binchester, Caer Gyb, Burgh Castle, Richborough etc.
 

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http://flatrock.org.nz/static/frontpage/assets/money_politics_law/portchester_castle.jpg

Near me, a prime example of reinhabitation of a roman fort at Portchester.

Steve, thanks for posting those images! Tidies up my concerns nicely. It does seem 'old newcastle' contains a wealth of heritage from all ages.

The fact that the victorians bulldozed through for their railways does severly comprimise the site. However, I may not be alone in thinking that it now contributes to the uniqueness of the site and the reflection that it is in such an urban area, as well as such rich heritage contributions such as the HLB and the vista of dean street arch. Saxon church under a railway arch! Only in Newcastle.

All this does make me somewhat homesick
 

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Perhaps uneasy but it was quite common for abandoned Roman forts to be re-employed as enclosures for monasteries, churches and cemeteries.

Thinking here about Reculver, Binchester, Caer Gyb, Burgh Castle, Richborough etc.
Yes, I meant they didn't always seem to like living in them. I was thinking of the Aldwych (=old town) in London - or rather just outside of Roman London.

The main thrust of my rambling (which was probably unclear) was that if the under-the-arches site was a Saxon (Angle?) church within a burial ground there might be an even earlier Roman-British church underneath it.

Incidentally can I claim half a point for the ancient church(es) which can be "seen" and "visited" on the panels in the Central Station Metro passage (assuming they are still there)?

Percy
 
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