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Former Member
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys

Over the past year or so, you've heard a lot from me about roads, with the odd post about PT here and there. So I thought it was time I put up some ideas for the rail system.

The way I have gone about this is to forget about busways, existing lines and tradition (i.e. every train must run through Central -- WHY?!?!) and instead focused on what I consider to be four important features of any urban rail system:
- Speed (must be on par with or quicker than alternative modes)
- Station locations and their proximity to major centres and ability to integrate with other forms of PT (bus, tram, ferry).
- Connections with other lines, there must be lots of these in the suburbs if possible.
- Opportunities for co-ordinated development around stations.

However, there is the issue of cost. So in some places existing alignments have been retained even though they bypass major centres (e.g. Red line bypassing Chermside).

So here is what I've come up with, a system of five passenger lines -- purple, green, red, blue, orange -- and a metropolitan freight system (grey lines). You will notice that stations on existing lines have been left out -- this is intentional. Then there are cases like the southern suburbs where the Beenleigh line has been abandoned in favour of a high speed line down the motorway (lots of tunneling and viaducts required here, plus the reconstruction of the road itself to allow for four rail tracks for a fair distance, very expensive) with frequent feeder buses running in a grid pattern.



Design standards (where possible) are:
- Inner City Lines, 80 km/h
- Middle suburbs, 100 km/h
- Elsewhere, 130 km/h. On the interurban lines, higher speeds are possible (for example the government has already purchased land for a 200 km/h line between Ipswich and Toowoomba), but since the newest trains can only do 130, that's what I've based my calculations on.

And in the PDF file below are tables showing sample journey times, number of services and stopping patterns. Please note that my maths may be pretty rusty, so acceleration/deceleration times, time between stations etc may be off, but they seem reasonable to me. Feel free to flame.

http://seqtion.googlepages.com/Timings.pdf

Some example journey times:
All stations train from Riverside Centre to Springwood, 18 minutes (currently 30 minutes by express bus)
All stations train from Riverside Centre to Beenleigh, 29 minutes (currently 45)
All stations train from Riverside Centre to Caboolture, 41 minutes (currently 60)
Express train from Riverside Centre to Nambour, 77 mins (currently 120 minutes)
All stations train from Riverside to Redcliffe, 37 minutes (over an hour by train + bus)
All stations train from Riverside to Cleveland, 25 minutes (currently 60 minutes)
All stations train from Riverside to Carindale, 12 minutes (currently 30 min by bus)
All stations train from North Quarter to Flagstone, 40 minutes (currently over an hour by bus, yes, they run buses that far out of Brisbane!)
All stations train from North Quarter to Browns Plains, 25 minutes (currently 1 hour by bus)

Now I imagine that such a plan, if implemented, would piss a lot of people off (because of deleted stations and abandoned lines), but it would also please a lot of people with reduced travel times (even when you factor in the time spent on a feeder bus). But for those who are put off by the station locations, I think the proposed locations are optimal for integration with a feeder bus system and/or other forms of PT.

And obviously, in the CBD there would still be a need for a tram system to ferry passengers around.

Discuss, flame, do whatever you please!

Trent.
 

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Former Member
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
^^ Just realised I left Coorparoo off the purple line 'timings' spreadsheet. Oh well. Must've been half asleep when I did that table up.

EDIT: I've found a few more errors now. No matter how many times I proofread these posts there are always errors I pick up after hitting 'Save'. Damn!
 

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Yes please for the red system!
Hopefully the highgate hill station would be closer to gladstone road :)
I would love to not have to take buses...
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yes please for the red system!
Hopefully the highgate hill station would be closer to gladstone road :)
I would love to not have to take buses...
Highgate Hill station would be near the site of the old Gloucester Street Station. It would have connections to Stephens Rd, Gloucester Street and Annerley Rd. So that would mean it'd be located between Stephens and Gladstone Road, just north of the existing Park Road station.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I like it!

East Brisbane really needs that Coorparoo-Carina-Carindale-Chandler-Capalaba line. Ditto for the Redcliffe line.
But it wouldn't be cheap to build. The Orange line would replace the Eastern Busway, and would be underground between Toowong and Carindale, and then above ground east of there to Cleveland. It would run on the freeway reservation through Alexandra Hills, before diving underground again to get into the Cleveland CBD. You could always build the Cleveland station on the edge of the CBD above ground though...

The purple line would be even more expensive -- underground between Alderley and Coorparoo with a river crossing.
 

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great plan. Would cost 10s of billions to build and as such would never happen.
Besides it would render the precious busways useless :banana:
 

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and COKE please
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Great plans, but I would love to see them taking into account what is there now. ie, "revitalising"

Other than that, it's certainly highlights what we all know already.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Are any lines in Brisbane underground?
The only underground sections are between Roma Street, Central and Brunswick Street. Elsewhere the closest you will get to underground are short tunnels and stations that have shopping centres/other buildings on top of them, such as Ipswich, Toowong, Robina etc.

Brizbane2 said:
Agreed Chermside and UQ need to be connected into the network
Also agreed. UQ is relatively easy to accommodate -- a simple diversion of the green line. But it requires 2 additional river crossings. A bus connection at Mt Stephens, The Gabba or Highgate Hill to the Uni via the Schonell Bridge would be satisfactory.



As for Chermside, that's a whole different story. The two heavy rail options - shifting the red line further west or shifting the blue line further east -- would both require a fully underground line, i.e. $$$$$. In the case of the blue line, it runs on a freeway reservation so it would all be above ground. The red line already exists (North Coast Line). I think this is where our friends called the crosstown express bus (BUZ style service every 5-15 minutes) and light rail could come in handy:



Another one I'm surprised you guys didn't bring up is Milton. The way I look at it is that the proposed North Quarter station, which would be across the road from the existing Roma Street station, is still only a short stroll away via that new pedestrian link that's going in. But it totally f's up the proposed tower to be built over Milton station.

RUM said:
Great plans, but I would love to see them taking into account what is there now. ie, "revitalising"
As you can see, it's like giving the railway system a heart transplant -- ripping all the inner city stuff out and replacing it. Of course much of the existing infrastructure will be needed for freight and long-distance trains. Some could be converted to tram lines (i.e. Doomben line, as shown above).



muntted said:
Besides it would render the precious busways useless
S.E. Busway, yes. Northern Busway, no. That would still be needed to serve the Gympie Rd corridor. Eastern Busway, well, that isn't anywhere near starting construction yet...
 

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But it wouldn't be cheap to build. The Orange line would replace the Eastern Busway, and would be underground between Toowong and Carindale, and then above ground east of there to Cleveland. It would run on the freeway reservation through Alexandra Hills, before diving underground again to get into the Cleveland CBD. You could always build the Cleveland station on the edge of the CBD above ground though...
Why not leave the Cleveland Line as-is and just build the proposed Capalaba Line but, instead of going north after passing through Alexandra Hills, have it go south towards Victoria Point/Redland Bay. I'd do something bad for a setup like that.
 

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Trent, I would first like to say, everytime I see a thread started by you, I get excited. I really love the work you do and think your maps are fantastic (you need to finish off the Western Bypass freeway though :) ).

Again with this one, great work. One of my main questions though, is why discontinue use of lines already in place? Wouldn't it be just as worthwhile to keep them running and service for suburbs by rail?
 

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derp
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Trent,

One thing I want to ask is what is the land use arrangement that you are working off? Is this system proposed to serve what is in the SEQIPP or another land use plan or is it developed completely independent of land use considerations?

I feel that it leans too far towards encouraging extensive long distance commuting with a continued CBD focus rather than a land use based solutions to reduce the need to travel.

My 2c
 

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̙͈̩ͫ̎Ż̌ͫ&
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I did this a while back - maybe, dunno?



Maybe have the line through Chermside/Aspley above travel through Carseldine, then through Taigum to Shorncliffe to create a nice cross-city link. Then make existing Shorncliffe trains split at Nth Boondall to travel to Redcliffe as shown in trentthompsons map.

(Have I got the correct Springfield line alignment?)
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Trent,

One thing I want to ask is what is the land use arrangement that you are working off? Is this system proposed to serve what is in the SEQIPP or another land use plan or is it developed completely independent of land use considerations?

I feel that it leans too far towards encouraging extensive long distance commuting with a continued CBD focus rather than a land use based solutions to reduce the need to travel.

My 2c
Good question. The lines serve all the major growth centres (except Chermside, funnily enough) identified uner SEQIPP and the SEQ Regional Plan. This includes Springwood, Mt Gravatt, Indooroopilly, Springfield, Ipswich and Carindale. Except for the eastern suburbs, the lines are higher speed versions of existing routes with stations better positioned for connections with other public transport modes, mainly buses. But you are right, the rapidly reduced travel times will encourage longer-distance travel (like the Gold Coast line has already done).

I have done up a more 'radical' plan that uses the exisitng heavy rail lines for the most part, but also includes a cross-city lines including one which loops around the inner southern suburbs and a city loop that provides all suburban/interurban lines with access to all the current city stations, plus 3 new ones. There would still be busways, albeit in the outer suburbs only.

I will post it tonight.
 

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and COKE please
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Dare I ask the obvious question.

What are the plans with the existing rail which are no longer used under your plan? Is there a map which shows the extent.

I believe that if Brisbane wants to improve its sustainability, it should start with everything within 10km of the city and not concentrate about the bogans who want to live 40km away and still drive their V8 utes. Like what crazy knightfan said...
 

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If you are going to do that much, rail freight should go up the Gateway MWY alignment, not the Cleveland line. The main intermodal hubs will in coming years be located out at places like Purga and Greenbank (southern link from Ebenezer to Yatala intersecting with interstate), meaning no need to go from Acacia Ridge and Moolabin up to Park Road junction. This would be a higher standard line and would evade the need for curfews.

Frankly I can't see much use in ripping out all the existing lines. Extensions and new city corridors will work more effectively. Something like
- Cannon Hill to Indooroopilly (shopping centre, redo river crossing approaches) via Bulimba, New Farm, Riverside, South Brisbane, West End, UQ and St Lucia - through running from Redbank all stops to Manly
- Strathpine link as you have described feeding into Spring Hill-Gabba corridor, possibly branching off to UQ and then south to Tennyson and Moorooka or otherwise down the Beenleigh line and to Flagstone
- Track amplifications in other places (including Cleveland to Manly duplication which has not been proposed yet) and extend to Flagstone, Kippa-Ring via Petrie, Ipswich via Springfield, Kingscliff, Caloundra/Maroochy, local SC line from Noosa to Maroochydore and extend Nambour services to Maroochydore via Bli Bli
- LRT for busway corridors and selected main roads where there can be reserved running. Many of the curves and gradients on the busways would not support heavy rail, and LRT has the advantage of more frequent headways, comparable to buses now. The busways' complete advantage outside of peak is sheer frequency compared to seat availability, LRT would work in peak too.
- Gradually upgrade stations to remove curvature and raise the platforms at the rate of about 8-10 per 18 months, ala present works on Beenleigh and FG lines, to remove need for guards and allow DOO and 3-car running. Expand park 'n' ride facilities more than 15km out from CBD and use additional buses sourced from reduced length CityXpress and BUZ runs no longer needing to travel to town for a better feeder catchment.
 
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