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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We go on about development and architecture, good urbanism and high density and mixed use neighbourhoods etc but these aspirations can all be undermined by trraffic planners and road engineering. What we get to build is largely determined by what sites are left over after the highway planners have had their way, including how the buildings can be configurated on each site to minimise the disruption to 'traffic flow'... madness?

How should Liverpool shape its streets and manage it's trafic routes - pedestrianisation or open access in the retail areas... speed limits in the inner core... banning double yellow lines... parking... etc.

I think it would be a good idea to restrict the speed limit to 20 mph within Queens Drive and that 90% of double yellow lines should be eliminated.

The Strand (and the rest of the inner ring road) should be a simple wide street

On the biger picture we should look at 'gridding' as much of the city as possible as the system gives maximum permeability... a much desired urban atribute.

What else?
 

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Cars V Pedestrians............. a solution ?

Tony, I have already voted for Church Street to remain traffic free, but to cheer up those who like traffic tearing around the downtown area, :) a snipitt of news I spotted in last weeks Daily Post;..............

Streets around the Concert Sq area of ropewalks will be allowed full unfetted vehicle access during the working day ,speed limit of 20mph will be imposed. But in the evenings between the hours of 8pm and 2am ( 4am on fridays and saturdays) automatic bollards will rise and the area will be traffic free.

A survey carried out as part of the Berry St /Renshaw St highway improvments showed that more pedestians crossed Berry St at 2am than 2pm. These measures would seem to be an excellent solution to provde a safe area free from traffic for the thousands of clubbers that decend on this part of town every week end..
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for that Woody, I did not know they had been progressing that.

Although thet thread was created to cover wider issues than downtown pedestrianisation, I would lay £50 that the closing off to traffic of that area will se a significant increase in crime and violence?

I am more interested in things like retail parks or high streets as far as this thread goes
 

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Liverpool + Urmston
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Tony Sebo said:
I would lay £50 that the closing off to traffic of that area will se a significant increase in crime and violence?


This area will still be open for Police and Paramedic vehicles, but at least the drunken hoardes won`t be run over :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Church St is too... doesn't stop the pisshead beating up on each other and innocent passers by! As I said I am prepared to back my prediction with the moola!

One of the attractions for girls is that they can call a private taxi 30 minutes early and get picked up at the door, avoiding all the shit and mayhem and waiting at a taxi rank.... loads of other little subtle things about supervion etc comes into play... if it didn't we wouldn't have a valid issue about post shopping Church St... nobody has questioned the point about that yet.
 

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Pedestrianised streets are horrible. IMO, they are worse for the pedestrian atmosphere as well as messing up traffic systems. They turn into congrigation hotspots for tramps, chavs and people who eat their McDonalds and dont throw their litter away.
 

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Just something
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Accura said:
Follow Glasgow's example:


or if you want something with a little less impact, why not Manchester?
Thank you Accy - we already have some of those.

IMHO what we need more of is `perhaps` drop off points, less intrusive car parking (free), trams and underground links and safe areas to enjoy in the city - without choking on `diesel` fumes etc.....traffic is fine but like most things needs some planning, controlling and some common sense. :sleepy:

Abolishing civic money making rackettering like `ticket wardens` and `clampers` may also be beneficial as if people continue to park in the wrong place there are other ways and means to discourage them.
 

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Developing the street layouts and rebuilding inner city and downtown districts with a focus on the locality rather than shipping people into the retaila nd commercial cores, by car, from the suburbs is the key.

For too long the car and roads have been allowed to dominate policy and we've ended up with barren landscapes and tarmac scars in districts which once boasted real urban density and fabric.

To achieve this public transport will need to be upgraded over time, but I think the commuters and downtown visitors will naturally change their habits over time anyway.
 

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I posted this on the Downtown boards in a similar discussion and its worth posting again. This is Istanbul, on a Thursday night at 10pm.



The street is Istanbul's equivalent of Church Street, but would you ever see Church Street like that?

Part of the reason for it being busy is it having a tram line running down it, but also because some shops stayed open late. Merseytram would have been good if it ran down Church street but Metrolink in Manc runs through their shopping streets and they have the same problems with hostility at night in my experience. It would be nice to at least see buses running up and down Church Street but I can't ever see it happening, people want to shop in outdoor malls, not on busy streets.

I'd also love to see all one way streets in Liverpool converted back into proper streets unless they are too narrow to allow traffic to run in each direction. They just provide confusion and make journey times longer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Great pics Steve.. I remember you putting them on the downtown forum.

Toads point is central and has cropped up on other threads. By not destroying the city fabric to accomodate commuter shoppers, then you actually stop the process of suburbanisation in the first place... don't bar traffic also, just don't bend over backwards to accommodate it. If you come from the suburbs and want to drive into the high density city, through equally intensely developed inner neighbourhoods then it is your choice to sit in an hour-long traffic jam!


Cue to move back nearer to the centre?
 

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Fuel costs and controls on out of town shopping and employment developments should tackle that as well Tony.

The key point for me though is to stop this notion that the 'city centre' is the be all and end all and we must get people in to at as quickly as possible, even if that means destroying established and viable districts.

Places like Old Swan, Allerton Road, County Road, West Derby Road, Aigburth Road etc should be the focus of our cities and they need to be reconnected to the 'city centre', the effect of this would be a vibrant and sustaining downtown attractive to all people.

Suburban traffic really does need to be shifted on to mass transit and the car journey in to the centre seen as a luxury. The shops can help with this by establishing a reliable and efficient delivery system for goods - another service sector created and sustained.

Bring back the Islington district, the dock road, Scotty Road, the South End, edge Lane etc, don't compound the the problem by creating more urban motorways that divide and kill neighbourhoods.
 

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Keltlandia
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As I've said before. it's not pedestrianisation that mongs Church Street at night, it's the fact it's an exclusively retail area. So, when the shops shut, it becomes a ghost town. The pedestrianisation just emphasises the effect. I think that picture of Istanbull proves that a pedestrianised street can still be busy at night if there are still things to do, ie bars, restaurants and late night shopping. If Church Street still had traffic going through it, it'd look more lively but it would be just an illusion as there'd still be hardly any pedestrians and there'd still be no activity as the shops would still be all shut.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Yes, that's an excellent point Gareth.. though there is a tram regularly going up and down it... and I bet that taxis can as well.

The main problem is indeed that Church St is dominated by retail...and not only 'retail'.. but only big chain stores!

Crack that when L1 comes on tap and we have a winner.

Did anybody get hold of a copy of the latest Just Liverpool?

I had a piece in it about Church St?
 

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Keltlandia
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Tony Sebo said:
The main problem is indeed that Church St is dominated by retail...and not only 'retail'.. but only big chain stores!

Crack that when L1 comes on tap and we have a winner.
The Met Quarter appears to be heralding the beginning of the end to this problem as they remain open late. It looks great all lit up with activity going on when looking at it from the Church Street/Lord Street junction after hours. Of course, there is The Welkin pub/bar on Whitechapel too. Hopefully it'll catch on in a contagious fashion in the next few years and we'll see more activity in Church Street and Lord Street, Lord Street being worse than Church Street in a way.
 

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But if Church Street wasn't pedestrianised and was open to public transport, would that encourage shops to open longer and might it encourage a broader range of outlets as opposed to just big chain stores?
 

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I can readily think of several buildings along `Church Street` and `Lord Street` that will be ripe for a varity of conversions after if not before `L1` (PSDA) and `St Pauls Square` come on line.

The currernt `Offices` above many of the shops may move allowing more hotels and apartments and there are a varity of plain `flat fronted` buildings that could do with a make over or reclad.

Pavement cafe`s and resturants at ground level and shopping above could also provide an alternative to the current `lock down` of the street scape after `shop closing` kicks in and `kicks out the people.`
 
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