Should equalization be scrapped?

i agree, i think that equalization should be scrapped. All it is doing now is making Ontario poorer and less able to pay for our own services, when we have to pay for everyone else's. Well thats what we get for being the back bone for so long, and no the back is ready to break and really not much is there to fix it. I just hope the fed's don't decide to change the formula so that Ontario get fucked over into having to still pay into it,.

But I say scrap it.

"In all the years of equalization it will be the first time when only 31% of the population will be supporting the other 70%. In fact it will be the first time it has dropped below 40% and that's a whopping 9% difference".

Actually, this statement is misleading. If Ontario ever does qualify for equalization payments, it will be simply getting back some of its own money, as the province is still going to be required to cough up half of the entire funds for the programme.. so, no one is going to be supporting Ontario. Certain provinces will just be receiving less of our tax money than they are now. You are quite right in pointing out that if Ontario becomes a 'have not' province, it is because it is sending the $26 billion per year more to Ottawa than it gets back. This is called killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Should the equalization programme be scrapped? Absolutely. It is the most perverse and undemocratic financial redistribution system I have ever heard of. There have been excellent articles this past week in the Globe and Mail discussing this bizarre slush fund, but nearly all of them are pay per view on the website, and far too long for me to transpose by hand.

The best chance the West has for having real power in Ottawa is for the Conservatives to prove to the entire country that they are working hard to serve everyone. In this regard they are failing Ontario miserably, and failing to impress Quebec despite bending over backwards for the past year or so. They are sliding in popularity against the weakest, most feeble opposition imaginable in history. A leader pulled randomly off the street would be doing better than Dion is. If the Conservatives can't gain popularity under these circumstances, they should really be asking themselves what they are doing wrong. Would Harper ever do just that? I wouldn't count on it, as so far he has proved to be inflexible, bullheaded and downright vindictive toward the largest province in this country. He is managing to do something that no other Prime Minister has done in generations, and that is to "wake the sleeping giant". In other words, he is totally pissing off the one province that might have been able to help him get re-elected. I'd say there are tougher times ahead for Mr Harper and he will have no one to blame but himself.

Equilization is a lot like the electoral mechanics and the labour unions.

They served a purpose at one point in time, and that time has past.

We need new, modern electoral mechanics that recongnize the realities that come with more than two political parties in the mix.

We need to get rid of labour unions because all workers are protected by labour laws which is what unions were formed to do, so now they are nothing but a redundancy. Note that this is different from professional associations and support.

We need to scrap this wannabe Robin Hood bullshit called equilization. It served a purpose in history, but the practice has been turned on its head, it was never supposed to do what it is doing today because it is effectively crippling the nation.

Here, let me put it in perspective:

This is how it used to work:


And this is how it works today:

Taller said:

What I would like to know is, where are the Liberals? Has anyone spotted them lately?
Is it not their responsibility to be speaking up loudly and clearly on these issues?

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How can they speak loudly when their leader can't even speak coherently?

The Liberals are completely useless. I could fart and it would make a stronger point than Dion.

Actually, this statement is misleading. If Ontario ever does qualify for equalization payments, it will be simply getting back some of its own money, as the province is still going to be required to cough up half of the entire funds for the programme.. so, no one is going to be supporting Ontario

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well that could be said about ANY province now, in the past, or in the future .

Rhino said:

well that could be said about ANY province now, in the past, or in the future .

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Any province that contributes half to the kitty, I suppose. But there are no others that do, are there? The rules have been dickered with over the years to make it increasingly difficult for Ontario to qualify, and each year increasing the amount of money that Ontario has to cough up (not to mention all the other "stealth" equalization payments that go on under the guise of other programmes). No one will be "supporting Ontario" if it finally gets a portion of its own money back.

Taller said:

The rules have been dickered with over the years to make it increasingly difficult for Ontario to qualify, and each year increasing the amount of money that Ontario has to cough up (not to mention all the other "stealth" equalization payments that go on under the guise of other programmes).

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That's a pretty grey area ur referring to here. It seems so easy to rationalize the bad times with some federal conspiracy to suck Ontario dry. That's why there's all these threads responding to the impending recession titled "should GTA be it's own country?", etc. I remember seeing threads about "Cascadia" in the BC forums a long time ago... so it won't not the first time that people thought that if they separate their problems will go away.

There's lots of rules that work against Ontario yes, but for every one of those, there's just as many that work in favour, ie protected industries, media, etc. All these factors and inequalities work both ways, otherwise the outcry would have happened long ago, because I don't believe for a moment that every Ontarian was "ok" with patiently supporting the other provinces with this 20 billion dollar figure ($2000 per Ontarian per year??) and then all of a sudden cry out "it's not fair".

It is sudden for people who knew nothing about it (or preferred to assume it was all a conspiracy theory), but not sudden for people who have been monitoring the situation over the past decade or so. A succession of Ontario premiers have spoken out about the situation, beginning with Bob Rae, but until now the message has been studiously ignored in the rest of Canada (and hey, why not? Who wants the economic budget supplements to be reduced in the have not provinces?). It is less of a "grey area" than people might imagine- in fact the amount of money that moves about in the system is very well documented. It may seem hazy to people, but the money is clearly accounted for. No conspiracy theories here. Anyhow, for the record, I agree wholeheartedly with ssiguy2- scrap the equalization programme, as it has simply become a political tool for pork barrelling. The situation is rotten, and will only get worse, thus Ontarians not only have a right to speak up, it is their obligation. In the past platitudes and guilt trips about putting up with the bad times might have been enough to keep people quiet, but that era is coming to an end. As it stands our Federal Government is doing absolutely nothing to assist the job loss situation in our manufacturing sector, and in fact is more interested in re-jigging the electoral rules to ensure Ontarians will be permanently under-represented in Parliament. No taxation without representation.

I honestly can't really see or understand Ontario (an economic engine) becomming a havenot province?
How does that even make sense with our huge population, largest city, capital, rich rich cities, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I understand our economy isn't what it was a few years ago (strongest in NORTH AMERICA), but it's MOST CERTAINLY not the poorest by a long shot either.
As far as I'm concerned, it will not happen, and if it does, I'll sell my house, move to Newfoundland, and give everyone a settlement of money (who thinks Ontario will become a havenot province) just for reading my rant. I'm 101% sure I'm right.

malek said:

Oil at 120$ a barrel is making Alberta and other oil producing provinces inflate at a considerable rate the mean by which provinces are considered have and have-nots...

Canada has effectively become a two zone economy.

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It's been a two-zone economy for decades:
zone one: have provinces (among which Ontario's presence is mandatory)
zone two: have-not provinces (among which Ontario's presence is prohibited)

"I honestly can't really see or understand Ontario (an economic engine) becomming a havenot province?"

It's not and never will be. The have not formula is basically a comparison formula so as long as economies like Alberta, B.C. and Nfld. continue to outpace Ontario's growth, Ontario will look like it's faltering. The truth is, if it could keep its 22 billion, it'd be in pretty good shape. Although no federal government will allow that, I do foresee a revolt in Ontario brewing once its provincial denizens see cut after cut to their social services whilst the ROC funds their with Ontario's blood money.

I really at this point don't see a future for Ontario in the Canadian family. As the province already looks south economically perhaps closer ties and eventual absorption into the American reality is inevitable, ironic as it may be. But seriously the comfort level of an Ontarian (and especially a Torontonian) is markedly higher in the U.S. than the in ROC. At least in the U.S. people are nice to you and not filled with preconceived prejudices and outright rudeness.

Gerrad said:

I really at this point don't see a future for Ontario in the Canadian family. As the province already looks south economically perhaps closer ties and eventual absorption into the American reality is inevitable, ironic as it may be. But seriously the comfort level of an Ontarian (and especially a Torontonian) is markedly higher in the U.S. than the in ROC. At least in the U.S. people are nice to you and not filled with preconceived prejudices and outright rudeness.

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No self-respecting Ontarian would ever want to consider becoming the 51st state.

However, we could pull a page out a Quebec's playbook, maybe even buddy-up with them, and threaten succession. If the former Upper and Lower Canada are BOTH trying to ditch the RoC, that'd cause a HUGE shake up in the HoC and change might happen.