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Should Ontario separate from Canada?

  • Yes

    Votes: 22 32.8%
  • No

    Votes: 45 67.2%
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If Ontario separated from Canada, it would have an extra $23 billion a year to spend on things like health care, education, economic development, infrastructure and tax cuts. Clearly, from a standard of living perspective, it is in Ontarians' interest to separate from Canada. Would you like to see Ontario separate from Canada?
 

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It would be a course of action that is just too extreme for our current situation.

Besides, look what the threat of separation did to Quebec.
 

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I think its obvious that the federal government takes to much money from Ontario. But seperation is to extreme. Surely these issues can be worked out.

With a powerful economy like Ontario has it should'nt have deficits in the billions like it did this year.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/prov_budgets.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Homer J. Simpson said:
It would be a course of action that is just too extreme for our current situation.

Besides, look what the threat of separation did to Quebec.
That was because the anglos left and so did many companies. If Ontario has free trade with the rest of Canada, I don't see a similar exodus occurring. The time has come for drastic measures. Even if McGuinty gets the $5 billion he's asking for, it still means Ontario sends $18 billion a year more to the feds than it receives, a figure that is set to grow as the "equalization" program gets even more generous at Ontario's expense. It doesn't seem right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
manitoba said:
What a sick, disgusting and embarassing thread.
Go to hell!
Is it as sick and disgusting as the $23 billion that the feds rob from Ontario every year, leaving our schools, health care, infrastructure, and finances in a shambles?
 

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Perhaps if you were more educated you would understand the equalization system the federal government has with the provinces. Would you like to see other Canadians in so-called 'have not' provinces become worse off as their situation would be exacerbated by Ontario refusing to share its wealth? Heartless.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
manitoba said:
Perhaps if you were more educated you would understand the equalization system the federal government has with the provinces. Would you like to see other Canadians in so-called 'have not' provinces become worse off as their situation would be exacerbated by Ontario refusing to share its wealth? Heartless.
Are you implying that Ontarians should continue to subsidize better health care, education, immigrant funding, economic development and infrastructure in other provinces than what Ontario gets? Because that is what is happening now. Why aren't you upset with Quebec for wanting to separate even after receiving countless billions in Ontario tax money since 1950? Why aren't you mad at Newfoundland for lowering the Canadian flag after receiving countless billions in Ontario tax money? Don't you think it's ungrateful?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
manitoba said:
Perhaps if you were more educated you would understand the equalization system the federal government has with the provinces. Would you like to see other Canadians in so-called 'have not' provinces become worse off as their situation would be exacerbated by Ontario refusing to share its wealth? Heartless.
I have a degree in political science from the U of T. I think it is you who are uneducated. Whatsmore, a recent poll indicated 75% of Ontarians agree with McGuinty that Ontario is getting shafted by the equalization program, and its fiscal relationship with the feds.
 

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Why aren't you upset with Quebec for wanting to separate even after receiving countless billions in Ontario tax money since 1950? Why aren't you mad at Newfoundland for lowering the Canadian flag after receiving countless billions in Ontario tax money? Don't you think it's ungrateful?
of course it's ungrateful. But Ontario threatening to seperate would be just as bad.
 

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I was mad at all of that as well! That does not that I cannot be upset with your idiotic thread. By the way, I have a poli sci degree as well.
 

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hey DRTO, are you in favour of Alberta separatism? Why not brake up the whole country?
I bet you're a Stephen Harper fan, aren't you?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
manitoba said:
hey DRTO, are you in favour of Alberta separatism? Why not brake up the whole country?
I bet you're a Stephen Harper fan, aren't you?
Alberta has a balanced budget, is wealthier than Ontario, and their wealth is generated predominantly by their resource (oil) industry. Since that is natural wealth generated from the land, I think it makes sense to share some of that with the rest of the country. Ontario is not blessed with such natural resources. In fact, when oil prices go up, Ontario gets poorer, and Alberta, Saskatchewan Newfoundland, and Nova Scotia get richer. That's why I don't sympathize with Albertans as much as Ontario, but I do think they suffer from a lack of government service in Alberta. Their taxes are much lower than Ontario's though!
 

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okeeeeeeeeeee, this is just retarded cause im proud to be a canadian not an ontarian
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ontario gap risks killing 'golden goose,' report says

By TERRY WEBER

Friday, April 15, 2005 Updated at 3:17 PM EST

Globe and Mail Update

Ottawa is in danger of “killing the golden goose” by running a huge operating surplus while leaving Ontario to carry an increasingly heavy fiscal burden, a new report said Friday.

According to CIBC World Markets, the $23-billion federal operating surplus – the difference between what Ottawa collects in the province and what it gives back – is 10 times what it was a decade ago.

“With Ontario stretched to its financial limits, and the federal government still comfortably in the black, some are asking whether Ottawa is killing its golden goose,” the report said.

The report comes as Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty battles with Ottawa for an additional $5-billion in federal funding.

Mr. McGuinty argues that the $23-billion funding gap – based on the amounts Ottawa collects through things like income taxes, GST and employment insurance premiums and what it gives back in areas such as transfers and direct spending – has left Ontario struggling in terms of education and health-care funding.

Ontario, Mr. McGuinty says, now ranks 10th out of 10 provinces when it comes to per capita government investment in colleges and universities. Similarly, he says, Ontario ranks second last per capita when it comes to how much the provinces receive for health care.

The debate spilled over to Question Period in the House of Commons on Friday, with members of the Opposition demanding that Prime Minister Paul Martin set a firm date to meet with Mr. McGuinty to discuss the gap.

“This government should stop taking Ontario voters for granted,” Conservative MP Belinda Stronach said, citing the CIBC report.

“Mr. Speaker, the Toronto Board of Trade said that this government's failure to address the Ontario gap has resulted in “crumbling infrastructure, declining service levels and increasing municipal and provincial taxes.”

Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan countered that Mr. Martin has been “absolutely clear” about his willingness to “work with the province of ontario, department by department, minister by minister, on issues of substance.

“We have been doing that,” she said. “We will continue to do that.”

The dispute comes as polls suggest dwindling support both nationally and in Ontario for Mr. Martin's Liberals in the wake of damaging testimony at the current federal sponsorship inquiry.

In Friday's report, CIBC World Markets senior economists Warren Lovely said transfers between provinces are an integral part of Canada's federal system and that the idea of the so-called rich provinces helping out others isn't the issue.

But, he said, the "sheer magnitude” weighs on what the report called an “already burdened economy, taxing the Ontario government's ability to invest in a strong, vibrant provincial – and hence national – economy.”

Toronto Board of Trade president and chief executive Glen Grunwald, in a letter to the Prime Minister, also called on Mr. Martin to sit down with Mr. McGuinty.

"Sooner or later, your government will have to deal with the growing demands across the nation for a fairer fiscal balance between levels of government," he said.

"You and Premier McGuinty have an opportunity to demonstrate how this can be achieved by cooperatively addressing important issues. There is much that you and Premier McGuinty can talk about and act upon. It is time for you to take the meeting, and to take it seriously."
 

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Actually while its true that Ontario does send bilions to the rest of Canada, part of that wealth thats generated in Ontario is due to the rest of Canada. Remember Toronto is the centre of Canada for business. These business operate in all of Canada with wealth generated in all of Canada going to Ontario in terms of jobs etc. If it were a seperate country, Toronto would be the centre of Ontario and not for the other regions. Thats something to consider. Not to mention the available labour pools from the rest of Canada for Toronto's economy. Its not as clear as you think it is. One has to figure out the benefit the rest of Canada in terms of taxes generated etc. Plus its also something to consider that Alberta pays $10 billion to the rest of Canada and now BC and SK are have provinces. It must also be remembered that the bulk of the money leaving Ontario is from the federal government. This is because the feds have the same tax rate across Canada and areas with higher wealth pay more in taxes. Its not like the federal government is going to set a lower tax rate in one province than the next.

Now in regard to poor infrastructure, health care and education spending. Thats actually up to the provincial government of Ontario and its huge debt since those are all priorities of teh provincial government. Remember that in terms of Program Spending the Ontario government spends $5,400 per person. That is the second lowest in Canada as NS spends $20 a person less. Alberta on the other hand spends over $8,000 per person. While most provinces are between $6,500 and $7,000 on programs (debt servicing is on top of that figure). Thus in reality is not that the money leaving Ontario from the feds thats casuing these problems its moreso that the provincial government wont spend on these items. To have the same level of spending per capita as Alberta for instance the Ontario government budget of $80 billion would have to grow by 60 billion a year from the current 80 billion. The debt of the Ontario provincial government is third per capita in Canada (just a couple hundred per person less than Quebec and will surpass Quebec at the rate its going and Newfoundland is way ahead in this department but their $2 billion a year form the feds will help). So that makes Ontario fight with one arm tied behind its back as it has to spend $10.8 billion a year just on debt servicing. That money can be huge for infrastucture, health care education etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
neilio said:
okeeeeeeeeeee, this is just retarded cause im proud to be a canadian not an ontarian
But you pay Ontario taxes and receive Ontario services. You don't mind that Ontario has the lowest funding for education of the 10 provinces, and the second lowest funding for health care? You don't mind paying higher taxes to support more generous social programs in other provinces? You don't mind that for 35 out of the last 37 years, the prime minister has been from Quebec? You don't mind having to bribe Quebec and Newfoundland to stay in the country? What have they ever given to us? Seal clubbing and poutine? Yeah, that's something to be proud of!
 

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While I agree that changes in the fiscal imbalance must come to fruition, separation is the worst option possible. It is far more complex than just saying 'we're separating!' It seems so elementary.
Proud to be CANADIAN!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
big W said:
Actually while its true that Ontario does send bilions to the rest of Canada, part of that wealth thats generated in Ontario is due to the rest of Canada. Remember Toronto is the centre of Canada for business. These business operate in all of Canada with wealth generated in all of Canada going to Ontario in terms of jobs etc. If it were a seperate country, Toronto would be the centre of Ontario and not for the other regions. Thats something to consider. Not to mention the available labour pools from the rest of Canada for Toronto's economy. Its not as clear as you think it is. One has to figure out the benefit the rest of Canada in terms of taxes generated etc. Plus its also something to consider that Alberta pays $10 billion to the rest of Canada and now BC and SK are have provinces. It must also be remembered that the bulk of the money leaving Ontario is from the federal government. This is because the feds have the same tax rate across Canada and areas with higher wealth pay more in taxes. Its not like the federal government is going to set a lower tax rate in one province than the next.

Now in regard to poor infrastructure, health care and education spending. Thats actually up to the provincial government of Ontario and its huge debt since those are all priorities of teh provincial government. Remember that in terms of Program Spending the Ontario government spends $5,400 per person. That is the second lowest in Canada as NS spends $20 a person less. Alberta on the other hand spends over $8,000 per person. While most provinces are between $6,500 and $7,000 on programs (debt servicing is on top of that figure). Thus in reality is not that the money leaving Ontario from the feds thats casuing these problems its moreso that the provincial government wont spend on these items. To have the same level of spending per capita as Alberta for instance the Ontario government budget of $80 billion would have to grow by 60 billion a year from the current 80 billion. The debt of the Ontario provincial government is third per capita in Canada (just a couple hundred per person less than Quebec and will surpass Quebec at the rate its going and Newfoundland is way ahead in this department but their $2 billion a year form the feds will help). So that makes Ontario fight with one arm tied behind its back as it has to spend $10.8 billion a year just on debt servicing. That money can be huge for infrastucture, health care education etc.
The Ontario government can't afford to spend on programs the way other provinces can, because of the $23 billion funding gap with the federal government. That is the issue. If Ontario got all the money it's given to other provinces back, over the past 50 years, the debt would be wiped out, and we would have a massive surplus. All Ontarians want is to be treated fairly, not treated as an ATM machine that feds withdraw money from every time they want to buy votes in Quebec or the Maritimes, or BC. It would be alright if they started depositing money into the Ontario piggy bank, but they've raided it so much, Ontario is now broke!
 

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I don't want Ontario to separate. So goes Ontario, so goes Canada.
That said they are getting screwed. When equalisation goes up that just means Ontario, especially Toronto, gets poorer.
When is Ontario goiung to REALLY stand up. Theyy should get 5bill NOW, not on the federal never-never plan.
The problem is that the Liberals can take Ontario for granted. Only now, when they know they can't is Martin willing to talk.
 
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