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Just something
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)

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Strange thread, strange premis... lends legitimacy to the 'regional project'.

if these then why not Leeds, Sheffield. York?

Sister cities implies cultural affinity... they will love us as long as they can be the centre of statist dictated ascendency!
 

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They are not sister cities.

Pietari said:
Leaving aside the song title that `Sisters are doing it for themselves` do the sister cities of Liverpool Manchester and Salford exist?
Manchester was the world's first manufacturing city. It owes its existence totally to the port of Liverpool, as does most of the North of England, especially the North West. Without Liverpool these towns and cities would be hamlets – the whole of the North West would have been like Cheshire making a continuous rural tract from Cheshire to the Lakes. Without the world’s first enclosed dock, the Old Dock, and the rapid emergence of other docks, the mechanism to import raw materials and export finished goods would not be there for the towns in the hinterland.

The Mersey is not a good river for navigation with tides up to 32 foot, very strong currents and sandbanks. Channels have to be dredged in the river and out in Liverpool bay, although in the early days that was not necessary because ships were smaller. The only natural asset the Mersey gave, was a deep water channel, The Sloyne. When looking at the river it is amazing that the world’s largest port actually emerged on its banks. OK it was shelter, but so were many other ports.

After Old Dock, the port’s transport links were, the upper reaches of the Mersey, the River Weaver, and cannals from Widnes to the lancashire coal fields and the Leeds-Liverpool canal. Everyone wanted easy access to the port to trade their goods. Inland villages became manufacturing towns as Liverpool slowly increased its throughput.

What made Liverpool a massive port and city was the coming of the steam engine. Docks and locks could be pumped with ease giving fast turn around of ships, ships pulled by tugs down narrow deep, sometimes dredged, channels. Coal fields were nearby to provide the fuel for the steam engines. Vast tonnages of cargo could be transferred through the port, and taken in and out fast by steam trains. Other ports were in competition, but what kept Liverpool ahead was the design of the interconnected dock water system and proactive dock management. Ships could move 5 miles inside docks, to load, unload and be repaired and not enter the tidal river. The Huskisson Dock was commissioned to cater for suspected larger steam ships that “may” emerge. When they did Liverpool was ready.

The Manchester Ship canal was built for kudos, a statement, to make Manchester a world city – not as some history has portrayed, to by-pass Liverpool as Liverpool was ripping Manchester off. Manchester was being ripped off by the rail companies not the port of Liverpool. To take ocean going vessels 46 miles from the sea in an age of fast train links was folly – the construction expense was phenomenal. The inland port only lasted 80 years.

The only similarities were that both cities were ports for a short time - one massive one tiny. Liverpool took Manchester’s materials in and out of its docks but never strongly traded as such. The only other connection is the people of Lancashire. Manchester took its population from the surrounds, Liverpool took only half of its population from the surrounds. They were culturally off key with each other. In Liverpool the strong cultural influences of the Welsh, Scots, Irish, Scandinavian, Dutch and German largely overrode Lancashire culture.

Sister cities? Nah.
 

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I don't even think that Manc and Salford are anything more than kissing cousins! Not a homogenous entity like our metro area!
 

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Thanx Pietari.....I immediately linked into the city of Manchester website you offered, to be presented with the district map of Manchester and being a wonk I eagerly scanned the info........Do you know what?.........Even though I have no family connections or other connections with Manchester, I was familiar with the name of each district and township........So give me a break! You say 'We need to get to know each other more' but the fact is that after a generation worth of Granadaland and BBC NW propaganda(not to mention the print meda) I have been thoroughly brainwashed. Quite amazing when I suddenly realised that I was less familiar with the geography of say, St Helens.

Now ask yourself. Why on the earth should this be so.
 

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Just something
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
jets9 said:
Thanx Pietari.....I immediately linked into the city of Manchester website you offered, to be presented with the district map of Manchester and being a wonk I eagerly scanned the info........Do you know what?.........Even though I have no family connections or other connections with Manchester, I was familiar with the name of each district and township........So give me a break! You say 'We need to get to know each other more' but the fact is that after a generation worth of Granadaland and BBC NW propaganda(not to mention the print meda) I have been thoroughly brainwashed. Quite amazing when I suddenly realised that I was less familiar with the geography of say, St Helens.

Now ask yourself. Why on the earth should this be so.
Hmmm, I`m just off to the pub and I`ll let you know when I get back! O.K,?

:) :cheers:
 

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Pietari said:
Leaving aside the song title that `Sisters are doing it for themselves` do the sister cities of Liverpool Manchester and Salford exist?
Manchester was the world's first manufacturing city. It owes its existence totally to the port of Liverpool, as does most of the North of England, especially the North West. Without Liverpool these towns and cities would be hamlets – the whole of the North West would have been like Cheshire making a continuous rural tract from Cheshire to the Lakes. Without the world’s first enclosed dock, the Old Dock, and the rapid emergence of other docks, the mechanism to import raw materials and export finished goods would not be there for the towns in the hinterland.

The Mersey is not a good river for navigation with tides up to 32 foot, very strong currents and sandbanks. Channels have to be dredged in the river and out in Liverpool bay, although in the early days that was not necessary because ships were smaller. The only natural asset the Mersey gave, was a deep water channel, The Sloyne. When looking at the river it is amazing that the world’s largest port actually emerged on its banks. OK it was shelter, but so were many other ports.

After Old Dock, the port’s transport links were, the upper reaches of the Mersey, the River Weaver, and cannals from Widnes to the lancashire coal fields and the Leeds-Liverpool canal. Everyone wanted easy access to the port to trade their goods. Inland villages became manufacturing towns as Liverpool slowly increased its throughput.

What made Liverpool a massive port and city was the coming of the steam engine. Docks and locks could be pumped with ease giving fast turn around of ships, ships pulled by tugs down narrow deep, sometimes dredged, channels. Coal fields were nearby to provide the fuel for the steam engines. Vast tonnages of cargo could be transferred through the port, and taken in and out fast by steam trains. Other ports were in competition, but what kept Liverpool ahead was the design of the interconnected dock water system and proactive dock management. Ships could move 5 miles inside docks, to load, unload and be repaired and not enter the tidal river. The Huskisson Dock was commissioned to cater for suspected larger steam ships that “may” emerge. When they did Liverpool was ready.

The Manchester Ship canal was built for kudos, a statement, to make Manchester a world city – not as some history has portrayed, to by-pass Liverpool as Liverpool was ripping Manchester off. Manchester was being ripped off by the rail companies not the port of Liverpool. To take ocean going vessels 46 miles from the sea in an age of fast train links was folly – the construction expense was phenomenal. The inland port only lasted 80 years.

The only similarities were that both cities were ports for a short time - one massive one tiny. Liverpool took Manchester’s materials in and out of its docks but never strongly traded as such. The only other connection is the people of Lancashire. Manchester took its population from the surrounds, Liverpool took only half of its population from the surrounds. They were culturally off key with each other. In Liverpool the strong cultural influences of the Welsh, Scots, Irish, Scandinavian, Dutch and German largely overrode Lancashire culture.

Sister cities? Nah.
 

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sjwmoore
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Another interesting post John, whats with the username change? I wouldnt say Manchester was WHOLLY dependant on Liverpool, but certainly largely so. Interesting point about the cultural influences and migratory patterns. Manchester did absorb a fair proportion of Irish, and later, eastern european Jews.
 

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sjwmoore said:
Another interesting post John, whats with the username change? I wouldnt say Manchester was WHOLLY dependant on Liverpool, but certainly largely so. Interesting point about the cultural influences and migratory patterns. Manchester did absorb a fair proportion of Irish, and later, eastern european Jews.
I may or may not be banned because people disagree with my opinions. My opinions stay. People PMd me saying they saw my name but not the posts. I registered with this name to see if all was OK, and it is clear Gareth the mod, is playing around. It is clear many here have a hidden agenda – probably based on vested interest. This name is more apt anyway.

Now back to your post. Manchester in the initial stages was pretty much dependent on Liverpool for its growth as was all the North West and beyond. If Liverpool did not develop the large docks system that could handle a large throughput the whole history of the North West would have been very different indeed. Liverpool was the dynamic hub which all revolved around. Today matters are different with fast roads, rail and air.

The demographics are about right. Manchester was largely Lancastrian in origin. The mixes came when it was a large city, while Liverpool was pretty well mixed right through.
 

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Keltlandia
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Manchester's a cousin city, like Dublin. The start off ingredient was Lancastrian and then Welsh and Irish along with further groups, Chinese, Somalian etc. Liverpool has no sisters unless you want to class the likes of Bootle and Birkenhead as separate entities. I've seen Manchester forumers refer to Liverpool as a sister city (not in any offensive context of course) which subscribes to the whole 'North West' ideal, but it's not real and only relly exists in terms of media and central governance. Anyway, we've been around the houses with the regional arguement, which seems to be what this thread boils down to.
 

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Keltlandia
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John-Waterways said:
I may or may not be banned because people disagree with my opinions. My opinions stay. People MPd me saying they saw my name but not the posts. I registered with this name to see if all was OK, and it is clear Gareth the mod, is playing around. It is clear may here have a hidden agenda – probably based on vested interest. This name is more apt anyway.

Now back to your post. Manchester in the initial stages was pretty much dependent on Liverpool for its growth as was all the North West and beyond. If Liverpool did not develop the large docks system that could handle a large throughput the whole history of the North West would have been very different indeed. Liverpool was the dynamic hub which all revolved around. Today matters are different with fast roads, rail and air.

The demographics are about right. Manchester was largely Lancastrian in origin. The mixes came when it was a large city, while Liverpool was pretty well mixed right through.

You do know duplicate accounts are illegal, right?
 

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Word, of advice, John. Since you've been reincarnated, you've made a couple of your long, opinioned and partial posts. Nevertheless both were fairly cogent by your standards and weren't insulting or offensive.

Stay like this, and maybe you can be allowed to stay on this forum. Remember, that this forum is a private members club owned by an individual (Jan) who is assisted by admins such as Gothicform, who himself appoints moderators such as Gareth to help keep the forums sensible, informative and enjoyable for all who use them.

They don't need a reason to ban you or anyone else - it's their club. However, in your case: you won't see it like this, but your contributions have caused offense and disrupted discussion for many other forum members. It should be no surprise if you were kicked off.

No doubt you'll view this as being unfair, but remember there is no free speech on this forum. Its owners are perfectly within their rights to kick anyone off simply because they don't like his face. If you like it here (and you spend many hours on this forum, and so I guess you do), be nice, and you might be able to stick around.

If not, why not start up your own John-Waterworkytat forum where you can say whatever you like? It might be a bit quiet there though.
 

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Awayo said:
Word, of advice, John.
I don't need your advice in any way shape or form, just kep it to yourself. Most of your posts have been negative, whinging and abusive, with little of them positive in any way. Take note.
 

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Awayo said:
Word, of advice, John..
I don't need your advice in any way shape or form, just keep it to yourself. Most of your posts have been negative, whinging and abusive, with little of them positive in any way. Take note.
 

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^^Perhaps, you're right, John, about me that is. Still no-mark I may be in you opinion, I've nevertheless survived four years on this forum and several thousand posts without brig, ban or censure.

You, however, have not. You're on the way to a ban. It's a pity. You *like* it here, John.

However, you've just been insulting yet again, which is what is causing you problems on this board. Stop it, please. It's for your own good. You don't want to get banned and yet you will for sure if you carry on as you have been.

Grip.
 
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