Somalis, I'm sorry but nobody wants you to have peace

Janub · 2010-10-17

the topic ran its course and made no progress. moderators, you may delete it.

bh2010

· #2 · Oct 17, 2010

^^ Dude i seriously doubt that kenyan or ethiopian govts would willingly sabotage somalia's stability because it somehow helps their countries. if anything, your neighbors want to see you stabilize and are taking money away from their already strained budgets to bring peace to somalia. Ethiopia sent troops there before and, if i'm not mistaken, uganda was just talking about increasing the number of troops it sends to somalia. I think nationalism is clouding your judgment a little there.

also, 1.6 billion dollars in somalian remittances to kenya sounds a little exagerated to me...show me your sources if you have any. i have heard this from many somalians here in the state and you guys make it sound as if eastleigh is the engine driving the kenyan economy...it's a nice place to shop for cheap clothes but i seriously doubt it will leave a dent if it were to disappear over night...

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lordangers5

· #3 · Oct 17, 2010

Yet another big lol coming from a guy called Janub. Most of East Africa (including Ethiopia) values Somali ports. It doesnt have Eritrean ones. Djiboutians are a little small and Kenya's kind of in the wrong direction. Sudans not to bad. Pirates are also able to roam the country's waters without anyone except the islamists teaching them a lesson. Massive naval pressence is needed costing millions just to keep a look-out. Fucking ridiculas. Peacekeeping missions have cost lives and millions has been spent on the missions. Yet of coarse that and all of bh2010's points are worth it because of what you have been saying.

Once bitten has got some competition. Come on oncebitten, show this guy how much of a n00b he is lol. No one can surpass your talents

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Xusein

· #4 · Oct 17, 2010

Bad idea for a thread.

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Janub

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 17, 2010

bh2010 said:
^^ Dude i seriously doubt that kenyan or ethiopian govts would willingly sabotage somalia's stability because it somehow helps their countries. if anything, your neighbors want to see you stabilize and are taking money away from their already strained budgets to bring peace to somalia. Ethiopia sent troops there before and, if i'm not mistaken, uganda was just talking about increasing the number of troops it sends to somalia. I think nationalism is clouding your judgment a little there.

also, 1.6 billion dollars in somalian remittances to kenya sounds a little exagerated to me...show me your sources if you have any. i have heard this from many somalians here in the state and you guys make it sound as if eastleigh is the engine driving the kenyan economy...it's a nice place to shop for cheap clothes but i seriously doubt it will leave a dent if it were to disappear over night...

I'm not a nationalist, far from it, I always advocated for Somalia's neighbors to annex it or for the country to be split like former Yugoslavia. I would love to see Mr. Museveni take over all of Somalia, I am a fan of his vision and stubborn attitude, which is what Somalia needs, not soft European politicking.

And about the 1.6 billion dollar statement - its directly from the CIA factbook.

Eastleigh is nothing in the grand scheme of things, I made no reference to that slum shopping mall. I gave an example of the khat trade that exists between Somalia and Kenya that's bringing in $1.5 million per day into Kenya's economy - that's a LOT of money my friend. Its ignorant to think that the Somali presence in Kenya both culturally and economically is stuck in Eastleigh, its far wider than that.

Personally, I see no incentive for Ethiopia or Kenya to want a peaceful Somalia. They have a small strain because of refugees but that's mostly watched over by European groups. Their economies have grown with the influx of Somali consumers and sellers and the lack of tariffs going into Somalia, their militaries can take a break now that Somalia is out of the game - Somalia's civil war was a blessing. Personally I wish Kenya and Ethiopia were a bit more bold and split the country, I don't like the current status quo but it makes the regimes in Addis Ababa and Nairobi smile.

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The Nomadic Warrior

· #6 · Oct 17, 2010

I actually agree with most you said

It is the brutal undeniable truth. A strong united Somalia isn’t beneficial for Kenya and especially Ethiopia in the long run of thing.

Khat is big business and anyone knows this. Khat isn’t even grown in historical land regions not even Ogaden or NFD. Kenya and Ethiopia knows that an Islamic Somali State would totally ban Khat and hurt that part of their economy. But overall, I don’t think Khat is a massive factor in the equation.

The war against United Islamic Courts had nothing to do with installing the TFG and fighting terrorism. It was more about America controlling the country. They were allied with numerous warlords during the civil war

America openly funded Warlords against the Islamic movements before anyone knew who their leaders were. Islamic courts were the best thing that happened to Somalia. They transformed the South region within 6 months. They stopped the fighting and started rebuilding within such a short time frame it was amazing.

The world could easily stop piracy if they helped the former fishermen. But they don’t care; they are illegal fishing in Somali waters and dumping nuclear waste. They spent millions of dollars fighting men with small boats and arms. But realistically, a financial boost in Puntland could stop this. But no, they steal millions of dollars worth of fish in Somali water monthly. This is not only confined to Somalia however

But I don’t agree with Ethiopia or Kenya annexing Somalia at all. They basically couldn’t do it if they tried. Ethiopia already has a hard time against ONLF in the Ogaden. And Kenya wouldn’t risk adventuring into Somalia

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Janub

Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 17, 2010

Nomadic Warrior - Somalia's neighbors refusing to accept an Islamist regime is completely within the bounds of acceptability. But, even a secular liberal Somali regime is a threat to the conditions of Ethiopia and Kenya. Was it not 3 consecutive secular regimes that went to war with its neighbors during your parents' and grandparents' generation?

If Ethiopia wasn't threatened by a secular Somalia, why did Meles Zenawi destroy Abdiqasim's transitional national government in 2002? There were no Islamists in that government. It was a mix-bag of secular dissidents and warlords, but once Abdiqasim landed in Mogadishu and began formulating a strategy to bring the country under his control the Ethiopians went to work. Even the leader of separatist Somaliland Ibrahim Egal may god rest his soul wanted a part in the government, even Puntland's leader stood by Abdiqasim. The prospect of a genuine Somali reconciliation scared Ethiopia.

I'm telling you, in the case of Somalia and its neighbors, Somalia is better off dead as far as Ethiopia or Kenya is concerned, no one can even highlight a single overwhelming positive - because even when you name that positive attribute that a united Somalia brings to its neighbors, there is the glaring elephant in the room; Somalia will attempt to retake the ethnic territories in its neighbors' borders. That alone is enough to keep the elephant down.

The reaction to the Islamic Courts and the subsequent conflict in 2006 opened a pandora's box in the region and it can't be closed. Now its too late to annex Somalia, which in my mind was the only real long-term solution Ethiopia created for the Somalia headache. I hope Museveni's blitzkrieg is successful, because I don't think Somalia will be allowed by her neighbors to achieve a natural peaceful conclusion.

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The Nomadic Warrior

· #8 · Oct 17, 2010

Janub said:
Nomadic Warrior - Somalia's neighbors refusing to accept an Islamist regime is completely within the bounds of acceptability. But, even a secular liberal Somali regime is a threat to the conditions of Ethiopia and Kenya. Was it not 3 consecutive secular regimes that went to war with its neighbors during your parents' and grandparents' generation?

If Ethiopia wasn't threatened by a secular Somalia, why did Meles Zenawi destroy Abdiqasim's transitional national government in 2002? There were no Islamists in that government. It was a mix-bag of secular dissidents and warlords, but once Abdiqasim landed in Mogadishu and began formulating a strategy to bring the country under his control the Ethiopians went to work. Even the leader of separatist Somaliland Ibrahim Egal may god rest his soul wanted a part in the government, even Puntland's leader stood by Abdiqasim. The prospect of a genuine Somali reconciliation scared Ethiopia.

I'm telling you, in the case of Somalia and its neighbors, Somalia is better off dead as far as Ethiopia or Kenya is concerned, no one can even highlight a single overwhelming positive - because even when you name that positive attribute that a united Somalia brings to its neighbors, there is the glaring elephant in the room; Somalia will attempt to retake the ethnic territories in its neighbors' borders. That alone is enough to keep the elephant down.

The reaction to the Islamic Courts and the subsequent conflict in 2006 opened a pandora's box in the region and it can't be closed. Now its too late to annex Somalia, which in my mind was the only real long-term solution Ethiopia created for the Somalia headache. I hope Museveni's blitzkrieg is successful, because I don't think Somalia will be allowed by her neighbors to achieve a natural peaceful conclusion.

Obviously, the Islamic Courts were moderate with some radical elements. But Sheikh Sharif had enough authority at the time to silence them and was doing a fantastic job. They didn't do anything to warrant being ousted, except some outrageous claims by the US. Apart from that they were nothing doing anything. But then again, it comes back those power that be who want a weak and divided Somalia.

Islamist is a ridiculous term. Following the Sharia Law doesn’t make you an Islamist but rather a religious Muslim.

Ethiopia is scared of a secular or Islamic Somalia state. I agree with that state. The 2002 TFG was heavy critic of Ethiopia’s role in destabilizing Somalia hence its utter failure. But then again, Ugandans with their heavy hand tactics will also fail again.

Your assumptions are totally wrong at most part. Most of Somalia is fine, except the capital. That the funny part, Somalia is heading towards tribal federalism with Islamic rule in the future. This is inevitable

Uganda will face the same fate as America and Ethiopia did. Somalis have a long history of dealing with occupiers and Ugandans will be dealt with equally. There is no point probing up a dead entity known as TFG who has no support from any clan in the South.

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yosef

· #9 · Oct 17, 2010

How exactly did neighboring countries make Somalis overthrow their own government in 1991 and start almost 20 years of chaos?
....it seems like Somalis might have done some of that on their own, no?

Anyway, I hope the Somali people find peace, they have suffered for too long

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Lailax

· #10 · Oct 17, 2010

Any religion based Government or State is dangerous to Somalia.
I hope Somali's do not implement Sharia and instead go down a separation between religion and state and politics and religion. I do not want us resembling Saudi Arabia

And I agree with Yosef. It was Somali's who overthrew their own Government (with good reason) and it was Somali's who started and continue this civil war.

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Nomad101

· #11 · Jul 4, 2014 (Edited)

yosef said:
How exactly did neighboring countries make Somalis overthrow their own government in 1991 and start almost 20 years of chaos?
....it seems like Somalis might have done some of that on their own, no?

Anyway, I hope the Somali people find peace, they have suffered for too long

erm

A move towards a greater Somalia would've most likely came again if Somalia recovered from the Ogaden war in the 80's.

So Ethiopia did the smart thing and put their efforts in getting rid of the current regime at the time.

Here are some of the major rebel groups that were fighting against Siad Barre at the time - see what they have in common:

Somali Salvation Democratic Front - Formed in Ethiopia
Somali National Movement - Trained and held a major HQ in Ethiopia
United Somali Congress - Formed & trained in Ethiopia

Why would a sovereign nation like Ethiopia allow all these armed factions to train and launch attacks from within it's borders?

If the Ogaden region ever seceded from the Ethiopia; it could lead to wider destabilization as the whole country is made out of conquered nations.

List of rebel groups in Ethiopia

Why do you think Ethiopia has such a strong lobbying effort in the states and foreign media against Eritrea and tries it's best to isolate it through political means (pushing for US sanctions and etc).

Not sure about Kenya but Ethiopia certainly does have it's reasons.

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J

juzme123

· #12 · Jul 4, 2014

Who are you? And why are you bumping a 4 year old troll thread?

Xusein delete/lock this thread

:lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock:
:lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock:

:lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock:

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Nomad101

· #13 · Jul 5, 2014

juzme123 said:
Who are you? And why are you bumping a 4 year old troll thread?

Xusein delete/lock this thread

:lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock:
:lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock:

:lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock:

How is this a troll thread... regardless of how old it is.

OP brought up an interesting topic and I thought to contribute to it.

Don't you ever wonder how a country of 10+ million can't get their sh*t together to create a basic government? Either they're all immensely incompetent or there are external forces at play...

Either way... still worth discussing.

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I

I.M Boring

· #14 · Jul 5, 2014

There are internal forces stopping Somalia from stabilizing, namely Islamism and warring clans. Libya has similar problems right now despite having several big advantages.

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Hector_of_Troy

· #15 · Jul 5, 2014

Like vultures they circle these kinds of topics but you will never see them in the photo-gallery or construction sections just randomly they will pop up once a troll topic is in circulation. Now their resurrecting threads dating back to the Ming Dynasty.

Indeed the trolls shall one day inherit skyscrapercity.

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