[deambulante]

Perhaps the problem is all the new talls and proposed supertalls around South Florida.

Yes, I have become a heretic (for this website). But I have driven around heavily in the South Florida area the last two weeks, after not doing so for some months, and I can notice the deterioration in traffic flow. It is frightening.
I really would not consider living in places like Aventura, South Beach, downtown Ft Lauderdale because the traffic has just gotten out of control. I mean I was driving a few times a 1.30 pm and it was gridlock. That is simply unacceptable.

So at this point the only solution is to freeze all development until politicians, local, state, and FEDERAL, are forced to come up with a comprehensive, final solution (a combination of very smart planning, very heavy funding, and outright vehicle restrictions, simply remove cars from the street on a rotating basis). Putting a stop to all these nonsensical stop-gap, way-too-late measures that only partially stanch the many holes of a collapsing dam.

How can you expect to double population densities all over these areas and not increase mass transit one iota, and not expect a complete collapse that makes the area unlivable?

I think there is a risk now that the entire area just becomes undesirable due to the rapidly worsening limitations on affordable, timely, and comfortable transport.

 

[CalleOchoGringo]

Yeah at least Miami has downtown mass transit. FLL might as well be Tampa or Orlando. They better get some light rail or heavy soon to get a handle on their downtown traffic issues.

 

[CoconutOne]

Yeah at least Miami has downtown mass transit. FLL might as well be Tampa or Orlando. They better get some light rail or heavy soon to get a handle on their downtown traffic issues.

They're getting light rail but it will use tracks laid into the road thus sticking it right in with the cars! :lol: :nuts:

As far as traffic/road issues, a lot of it can be cleared up if traffic engineers were actually doing their job. Something as simple as reprogramming lights would make a considerable difference. There are countless places in Miami where you're sitting at a red light watching the green one in front of you, only to have said green turn red as you finally approach. It's insanity.

 

[Paul305]

Bay Link Update:

From the Policy Executive Committee Meeting (April 2, 2014):

Direct Connection Alternative (DC) ($532M):

Operational Loop + Alton Alternative (OLA) ($646M):

DC + OLA + Extensions ($1.7B):

Section Views:

 

[marcvader]

This looks like its going to be pushed forward any other options be damned. All that overlap in Downtown drives me insane.

 

[dave8721]

Getting rid of the street parking on Washington means the taxis in front of the clubs will have to stop in the street to pick up people, which they often do anyway, but this would give them no alternative.

 

[CalleOchoGringo]

Another wasted opportunity to add more of an already existing mode of transportation rather than adding yet another mode. Although, I must admit I'm starting to get desperate enough to just take whatever I can get.

The right of way separation on Tuttle and MacArther is nice, now to convince them to extend it to surface roads in downtown and the beach as well (or just grade separate).

 

[CoconutOne]

Absolutely horrible.

I don't understand what the DC + OLA + Extensions means, and why is that price lower than all the rest?

While I hate to lobby against mass transit, this is one project that deserves it. Washington alone will be chaos- cars will be jumping the track and passing others like there's no tomorrow. No parking is catastrophic for businesses.

Another issue is that although the train is good for tourist (which is a very big part of expected ridership, I'm sure) the route turns its back on most Miami Beach residents. Residents don't live along Washington, or Ocean, but rather Alton, West, Lenox, etc.

The light rail magic elixir strikes again! I, along with the vast majority of others, will stick to the car.

I only hope at this point the funding isn't available and this project dies, because it seems as though leaders are gung ho on it. It's such a disaster and embarrassment to Miami, especially after so many years of waiting.

 

[marcvader]

Maybe there are kickbacks on the horizon.

 

[Paul305]

Absolutely horrible.

I don't understand what the DC + OLA + Extensions means, and why is that price lower than all the rest?

While I hate to lobby against mass transit, this is one project that deserves it. Washington alone will be chaos- cars will be jumping the track and passing others like there's no tomorrow. No parking is catastrophic for businesses.

Another issue is that although the train is good for tourist (which is a very big part of expected ridership, I'm sure) the route turns its back on most Miami Beach residents. Residents don't live along Washington, or Ocean, but rather Alton, West, Lenox, etc.

The light rail magic elixir strikes again! I, along with the vast majority of others, will stick to the car.

I only hope at this point the funding isn't available and this project dies, because it seems as though leaders are gung ho on it. It's such a disaster and embarrassment to Miami, especially after so many years of waiting.

The extensions alone would cost $529M. Together with the DC and OLA alternatives, it would cost $1.7B.

 

[CoconutOne]

Maybe there are kickbacks on the horizon.

Wouldn't surprise me!

The extensions alone would cost $529M. Together with the DC and OLA alternatives, it would cost $1.7B.

I see. I can't believe that if it's just the DC that comes to fruition, they want to completely close NE 2nd Street.

 

[Paul305]

I can't believe that if it's just the DC that comes to fruition, they want to completely close NE 2nd Street.

I think the most likely scenario is the DC Alternative and it would block the entrances or exits of the Vizcayne, four parking garages and six surface parking lots along NE 2nd St. However, since it will have its own right-of-way, it is estimated to take only 41 minutes round trip, even during rush hour.

 

[BornInTheGrove]

man are you guys negative. and the bitching over things you have no control over, wow. i understand we have metromover and metrorail, but why do we have to limit ourselves to only those two forms of transportation? ever been to san francisco? i rode the bart, historic streetcar and muni lightrail, and i was greatful for all the different modes of transportation, in whatever form they came.

i actually WANT lightrail from miami to miami beach. it's more appealing than a bus, bigger than metromover, and more flexible than metrorail.

that said, here are my preferences when it comes to the sectional views...

Biscayne Blvd: Option 1*
5th Street: Option 1*
Washington Avenue: Option 2

NOW, *I struggle a bit with choosing these options because i think it would benefit everyone more if the trains were on just one side of the street (again ref: San Francisco), but i think if it were done this way, it would cost a lot more shifting the streets to accommodate such an option than it would be to just take away a lane or easment/swale.

That being said, if option 2 can be done in both cases to minimal expense in a timely manner (yeah right), i'm game. i'd much rather prefer functionality and appeal over anything else.

 

[CoconutOne]

man are you guys negative. and the bitching over things you have no control over, wow. i understand we have metromover and metrorail, but why do we have to limit ourselves to only those two forms of transportation? ever been to san francisco? i rode the bart, historic streetcar and muni lightrail, and i was greatful for all the different modes of transportation, in whatever form they came.

i actually WANT lightrail from miami to miami beach. it's more appealing than a bus, bigger than metromover, and more flexible than metrorail.

There's no limiting to just Metrorail and Mover, but if we're going to introduce a new transit method, all I'm asking is that it be done right.

First and foremost, the train running at grade both Downtown and in South Beach is a disastrous idea. You have streets that are already congested so removing lanes is just going to make traffic worse.

Second, with tracks so easily drivable, what's going to stop motorist from just cruising onto them? This is especially true on Washington. If the other option is considered, how is losing all that parking going to affect businesses in that corridor? What about deliveries? Valets?

Third, with tracks so close to the sidewalks, what's going to stop people from walking on them? You'd be surprised how many people don't see a big train coming, especially when they're drunk.

Fourth, what about flooding? Miami Beach perpetually floods. Can the train operate through flood water? Probably not considering the train will be electrified by a third rail. So does the train just cease operations until the water recedes? It's not like it can just go half way and turn around.

Fifth, with this being a different form of mass transit (light rail) how much more expensive will it be to operate? We should be taking cues from businesses in transportation on how to keep operating costs low. For example, look at Southwest Airlines. They exclusively operate 737's so their fleet is standardized.

Sixth, while the route might be good for tourist, what about the vast majority of residents? Residents don't live near Washington but rather closer to Alton. Although there's the OLA, how many of us actually believe that's going to get built? The DC is most likely the only part that will happen.

I do love mass transit, I really do, but I hate projects that aren't fully thought through. Transit dollars are so limited, and we have ONE chance to get it right. Once a system is built, it's not going any place for a looooooooooong time, if ever.

 

[CoconutOne]

it is estimated to take only 41 minutes round trip, even during rush hour.

If you're already Downtown, getting to the Beach doesn't take 41 minutes, even during rush hour, especially if you look at traffic before you leave and take the least congested option.

 

[pawnmaster]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/04/12/4055635/unexpected-cost-could-slow-miami.html

Unexpected cost could slow Miami-to-Orlando train plan

trains by nx yr and not one design w specifics yet....

 

[BornInTheGrove]

There's no limiting to just Metrorail and Mover, but if we're going to introduce a new transit method, all I'm asking is that it be done right.

Agree to that

First and foremost, the train running at grade both Downtown and in South Beach is a disastrous idea. You have streets that are already congested so removing lanes is just going to make traffic worse.

maybe removing lanes and having a dedicated street car only street would improve traffic? what if the people decided, "you know what, i actually don't need to drive my car..." downtown has PLENTY of streets, i think closing down one or two to vehicular traffic will benefit everyone.

there are some, not many really, but there are some buildings (the loft, loft 2) that don't have parking pedestals, which means not everyone drives. if transit becomes more common place, where it actually has routes that serve a purpose, maybe more buildings would be built along those routes, without the need for parking... isn't this the goal?

Second, with tracks so easily drivable, what's going to stop motorist from just cruising onto them? This is especially true on Washington. If the other option is considered, how is losing all that parking going to affect businesses in that corridor? What about deliveries? Valets?

these are viable concerns no doubt. and i won't attempt to downplay them. i'd imagine vehicle traffic would be hampered some by the temporary blockage of lanes while delivery trucks make they're deliveries, and valets doing their thing.

as far as car being able to cruise onto the tracks, you're assuming there isn't a small barrier preventing them from doing so, like a curb maybe.

Third, with tracks so close to the sidewalks, what's going to stop people from walking on them? You'd be surprised how many people don't see a big train coming, especially when they're drunk.

what's to stop people walking on the sidewalk from jumping into oncoming traffic? common sense maybe? i'm sorry but if you're drunk walking around and about and just so happen to be lucky enough to be hit by a train, you deserve a darwin award for that.

Fourth, what about flooding? Miami Beach perpetually floods. Can the train operate through flood water? Probably not considering the train will be electrified by a third rail. So does the train just cease operations until the water recedes? It's not like it can just go half way and turn around.

i thought they were fixing the flood problem, no? i thought that's why there is so much more traffic on the beach to begin with, you know, because of all the construction... to fix the flooding.

and perpetually? come on lol. i know after a couple of serious rain storms in recent years the beach had flooded quite a bit, but that only lasted a day or two, maybe three.

Fifth, with this being a different form of mass transit (light rail) how much more expensive will it be to operate? We should be taking cues from businesses in transportation on how to keep operating costs low. For example, look at Southwest Airlines. They exclusively operate 737's so their fleet is standardized.

your example of southwest and using only 737's is kinda like saying for example, downtown only has metromover... it's good for the short to medium ranges, but try using metromover to get to dadeland. sure it can be done, but with 20 people max inside a mover, and the mover going only ever so fast, it doesn't make sense to keep adding metro mover tracks to far flung places. the same principle goes for southwest. they use 737's because they're not flying LA to Tokyo... we use metrorail because i need to get from dadeland to downtown in 15-20 minutes... not an hour or more.

Sixth, while the route might be good for tourist, what about the vast majority of residents? Residents don't live near Washington but rather closer to Alton. Although there's the OLA, how many of us actually believe that's going to get built? The DC is most likely the only part that will happen.

i have 3 friends, and know of at least 5 more, who live on the beach. ALL OF THEM have bicycles that they use to get around the beach. you mean to tell me because a rail stop is not near you, all forms of cognitive thought go out the window? biking to a rail stop seems very doable to me, especially if say i live on alton, bike to a rail stop, then catch the train downtown, and then bike around downtown, which is also very doable.

who knows, maybe this will expand the bike sharing program even more, which would in turn bring less cars onto the roads... ehhhhh?!?

I do love mass transit, I really do, but I hate projects that aren't fully thought through. Transit dollars are so limited, and we have ONE chance to get it right. Once a system is built, it's not going any place for a looooooooooong time, if ever.

you swear this proposal was slapped together on a weekend... transit dollars are limited, which is why heavy rail is absolutely out of the question; there's no money for it whatsoever.

i can't attest to whether this project has been thought through or not, but what i can say that if there is one certainty here, it is that there NEEDS to be a form of mass transit from the mainland to the beach.

 

[Paul305]

If you're already Downtown, getting to the Beach doesn't take 41 minutes, even during rush hour, especially if you look at traffic before you leave and take the least congested option.

That's 41 minutes round-trip so 20.5 minutes each way for the entire length of the rail. If you're trying to get from Museum Park to South Beach, it would take only about 10 minutes.

 

[CF221]

There's no limiting to just Metrorail and Mover, but if we're going to introduce a new transit method, all I'm asking is that it be done right.

First and foremost, the train running at grade both Downtown and in South Beach is a disastrous idea. You have streets that are already congested so removing lanes is just going to make traffic worse.

I think in this city of ours, which has been designed for automobiles, there is a growing conflict of interest between the nascent public transportation and the ability of drivers to drive on the streets they are used to driving on.

In effect, there comes a time where, in order to provide more efficient public transportation, you must sacrifice one or two lanes of automobile traffic. It will make traffic worse for car users, but better for public transportation users who will get where they want earlier. This is for the better.

Second, with tracks so easily drivable, what's going to stop motorist from just cruising onto them? This is especially true on Washington. If the other option is considered, how is losing all that parking going to affect businesses in that corridor? What about deliveries? Valets?

Wouldn't lost parking be compensated through the new availability of public transportation?

Third, with tracks so close to the sidewalks, what's going to stop people from walking on them? You'd be surprised how many people don't see a big train coming, especially when they're drunk.

I second BornInTheGrove's statement. Anyone can, at any time, throw themselves on a busy car street and be killed.

Fifth, with this being a different form of mass transit (light rail) how much more expensive will it be to operate? We should be taking cues from businesses in transportation on how to keep operating costs low. For example, look at Southwest Airlines. They exclusively operate 737's so their fleet is standardized.

What other form of transportation would you propose?

Sixth, while the route might be good for tourist, what about the vast majority of residents? Residents don't live near Washington but rather closer to Alton. Although there's the OLA, how many of us actually believe that's going to get built? The DC is most likely the only part that will happen.

I think both options would be the best plan. We just spent half a billion dollars to build a big interchange between the Palmetto and Dolphin Expressways. I think we should be able to fund public transportation.

 

[CoconutOne]

maybe removing lanes and having a dedicated street car only street would improve traffic? what if the people decided, "you know what, i actually don't need to drive my car..." downtown has PLENTY of streets, i think closing down one or two to vehicular traffic will benefit everyone.

there are some, not many really, but there are some buildings (the loft, loft 2) that don't have parking pedestals, which means not everyone drives. if transit becomes more common place, where it actually has routes that serve a purpose, maybe more buildings would be built along those routes, without the need for parking... isn't this the goal?

Right, but the problem A) not everyone lives Downtown, and B) Just as some buildings don't have parking, there are some parking garages without buildings.

So if I don't live Downtown and end up going to South Beach, the congestion there will be now twice as bad. If I don't live in South Beach but end up needing to go Downtown, the same thing happens.

Unless we have a cohesive mass transit infrastructure, which we don't, eliminating already congested traffic lanes is just insane.

these are viable concerns no doubt. and i won't attempt to downplay them. i'd imagine vehicle traffic would be hampered some by the temporary blockage of lanes while delivery trucks make they're deliveries, and valets doing their thing.

Do you know how long delivery trucks take?!

as far as car being able to cruise onto the tracks, you're assuming there isn't a small barrier preventing them from doing so, like a curb maybe.

If this system is built like other light rail systems (which certainly seems to be the case... nothing here is winning a prize for design or innovation) it will be a ramped curb. Not exactly a deterrent, especially for Miami drivers.

See the second picture here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=112887117&postcount=5815

If you Google you'll find other systems that are exactly the same.

what's to stop people walking on the sidewalk from jumping into oncoming traffic? common sense maybe? i'm sorry but if you're drunk walking around and about and just so happen to be lucky enough to be hit by a train, you deserve a darwin award for that.

Nothing; however, stopping a vehicle and stopping a train are much different. People also expect traffic to continually flow, whereas a train only comes every so often.

i thought they were fixing the flood problem, no? i thought that's why there is so much more traffic on the beach to begin with, you know, because of all the construction... to fix the flooding.

and perpetually? come on lol. i know after a couple of serious rain storms in recent years the beach had flooded quite a bit, but that only lasted a day or two, maybe three.

I'm not talking about major flooding that lasts for days, I'm talking about flooding that is even only a few inches deep, just enough to barely cover the tracks. Water and electricity don't mix.

your example of southwest and using only 737's is kinda like saying for example, downtown only has metromover... it's good for the short to medium ranges, but try using metromover to get to dadeland. sure it can be done, but with 20 people max inside a mover, and the mover going only ever so fast, it doesn't make sense to keep adding metro mover tracks to far flung places. the same principle goes for southwest. they use 737's because they're not flying LA to Tokyo... we use metrorail because i need to get from dadeland to downtown in 15-20 minutes... not an hour or more.

I wouldn't consider Miami and South Beach to be a very long distance. Almost 4 miles of the journey is over the MacArthur, i.e.- practically no stopping.

Top speed on any form of mass transit is irrelevant. A train like Metrorail goes ~60 MPH, but averages only ~27 MPH. You can have a much lighter system that costs significantly less, with say a top speed of 25 MPH, and get people from point A to B in practically the same amount of time if you simply cut out all the stopping.

i have 3 friends, and know of at least 5 more, who live on the beach. ALL OF THEM have bicycles that they use to get around the beach. you mean to tell me because a rail stop is not near you, all forms of cognitive thought go out the window? biking to a rail stop seems very doable to me, especially if say i live on alton, bike to a rail stop, then catch the train downtown, and then bike around downtown, which is also very doable.

who knows, maybe this will expand the bike sharing program even more, which would in turn bring less cars onto the roads... ehhhhh?!?

I'm not saying people don't bike, and won't bike to a rail stop. What I will say is look at Metrorail ridership figures. Metrorail stops are by thousands of homes already. What can happen and what does happen are mighty different.

you swear this proposal was slapped together on a weekend... transit dollars are limited, which is why heavy rail is absolutely out of the question; there's no money for it whatsoever.

i can't attest to whether this project has been thought through or not, but what i can say that if there is one certainty here, it is that there NEEDS to be a form of mass transit from the mainland to the beach.

We agree that there needs to be a link, but settling for this half baked idea is just foolish.

That's 41 minutes round-trip so 20.5 minutes each way for the entire length of the rail. If you're trying to get from Museum Park to South Beach, it would take only about 10 minutes.

Thanks for the clarification. That's a better number.