[brisavoine]

I see the Berlin turned London thread has been conveniently closed by some people who don't like to hear disagreeing facts.

I checked carefully the UK Census 2001 to retrieve commuting figures across southeastern England, and they totally debunk the idea of a large 17 million+ metro area of London. You can double-ckeck figures here.

Here are the facts:
- in Peterborough, located 100 km (62 miles) north of the border of Greater London (as the crow flies), 79.1% residents in employment reported they travelled less than 10 km. (6 miles) to work

- in Cambridge, located 58 km (36 miles) north of the border of Greater London (as the crow flies), 80.3% residents in employment reported they travelled less than 10 km. (6 miles) to work

- in Bedford, located 59 km (37 miles) north of the border of Greater London (as the crow flies), 65.5% residents in employment reported they travelled less than 10 km. (6 miles) to work

- in Oxford, located 55 km (34 miles) northwest of the border of Greater London (as the crow flies), 78.2% residents in employment reported they travelled less than 10 km. (6 miles) to work

- in Northampton, located 78 km (48 miles) northwest of the border of Greater London (as the crow flies), 78.2% residents in employment reported they travelled less than 10 km. (6 miles) to work

- in Brighton and Hove, located 52 km (32 miles) south of the border of Greater London (as the crow flies), 68.8% residents in employment reported they travelled less than 10 km. (6 miles) to work

- in Milton Keynes, located 51 km (32 miles) northwest of the border of Greater London (as the crow flies), 73.8% residents in employment reported they travelled less than 10 km. (6 miles) to work

These Census results prove that none of these cities can be considered part of the metropolitan area of London, no matter what definition you use.

 

[Metropolitan]

Brisavoine, the argument used by those advocating a London metro area at 18 million is that even if there are no directly 40% of commuters from those areas to central London, if you make it gradually, you'll find 40% of commuters from Greater London, to a city nearby it, then from that city nearby it to another a bit further from it, and so one and so forth untill Brighton, Peterborough, Cambridge etc...

By using that way of calculation, Paris would have a metropolitan area of 16 million people. That figure is actually an official one from the INSEE to determine the "Espace urbain du Grand Bassin Parisien", or in other words, the metropolitan region in which Paris is part of. However, it's of course completely ridiculous to consider that this "espace urbain" is actually a metropolitan area. Indeed a metropolitan area is about a single urban core surrounded by a sparsely populated periurban belt. It's not about grouping together different specific urban areas, or cities, which are closely related.

I've made a similar thread to yours which is right here : Paris metro area, 16.7 million people ?

The idea of my thread was to prove by the absurd, in using the example of Paris which is well determined by the INSEE statistics, why London metro area could not be at 18 million people. Probably both of our threads should get merged in yours.

 

[brisavoine]

All figures I listed show that less than 40% (in some cases less than 20%) of people in each of the cities mentioned travel more than 6 miles to work. This basically means that less than 40% of these people work outside of their cities. Therefore, even if you use a gradual approach, there's no way these cities can be considered part of the London metro area.

 

[Taller Better]

I think most people are more comfortable with the 11 million figure, and eyebrows would raise over an 17 million claim. The quickest way to convince yourself of this is to go to a city like Sao Paolo that actually HAS 19 million people, and you will see London is not anywhere close to 17 million.

 

[streetscapeer]

I don't really care that much for metropolitan area population fugures....what's important and cool in my eyes are the urban area populations...

...and of course london's urban area in in not close to 17 million (NY's I think is over 18 million, I could be wrong)

does anyone have any figures for the *urban area populations* of both London and NY?

 

[brisavoine]

does anyone have any figures for the *urban area populations* of both London and NY?

Exact numbers are in the Berlin thread that is now locked. Check it. From memory, it's about 18 million in NY, 10.1 million in Paris, and 8.5 million in London.

 

[sarflonlad]

Why are there so many threads on Metros?

It's like a never ending desire to make places seem bigger than they actually are (small dick syndrome if you will....).

No way could you say 17 million people have direct influence on London. I should be biased living here, but I can't. It's a ridiculous claim that gets thrown about on these boards so flippantly.

 

[eklips]

I don't really care that much for metropolitan area population fugures....what's important and cool in my eyes are the urban area populations...

...and of course london's urban area in in not close to 17 million (NY's I think is over 18 million, I could be wrong)

does anyone have any figures for the *urban area populations* of both London and NY?

Yes and no, because you have to keep in mind that since people who live in the metro area work in the city, during the day (and also for the nightlife to a lesser extend), a lot of people you will see in the city will in fact not be from the urban core but from the metro area.

 

[Englishman]

There are still train loads of comuters from towns like Southampton to London.

Of course towns like Cambridge are not merely housing, they are major employers themselves, and Cambridge has many hi tech jobs, university jobs etc. However you must remember that many people work in health and education and other public services.

That said, you may not go to london every day, but there's a fair chance that many business men would go to the office in cambridge oxford etc, and then go for an afternoon meeting in the London office, catch a play one evening in the westend, or meet friends for coffee.

 

[dom]

I would regard Metropolitan London as the area inside the M25 and the area covered by the Underground.

Inner London's population is 7.1 million and Outer London's population is 2.3 million people... so the population nudges 10 million for the population inside the M25. That sounds reasonable.

 

[chicagogeorge]

50 Largest World Metropolitan Areas Ranked:
2000 Estimates

Rank Metropolitan Area Nation Population
1 Tokyo-Yokohama Japan 33,190,000
2 New York United States 21,362,000
3 Seoul-Inchon South Korea 19,920,000
4 Mexico City Mexico 19,620,000
5 Sao Paulo Brazil 17,720,000
6 Mumbai (Bombay) India 17,580,000
7 Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto Japan 16,930,000
8 Los Angeles United States 16,374,000
9 Manila Phillipines 14,140,000
10 Cairo Egypt 14,000,000
11 Calcutta India 13,940,000
12 Delhi India 13,720,000
13 Shanghai China 13,580,000
14 Buenos Aires Argentina 13,390,000
15 Jakarta Indonesia 13,330,000
16 Beijing China 13,160,000
17 Moscow Russia 13,100,000
18 London United Kingdom 12,130,000
19 Karachi Pakistan 11,020,000
20 Rio de Janeiro Brazil 10,810,000
21 Teheran Iran 10,740,000
22 Paris France 10,600,000
23 Istanbul Turkey 10,430,000
24 Lagos Nigeria 10,030,000
25 Tianjin China 9,920,000
26 Chicago United States 9,312,000
27 Nagoya Japan 8,837,000
28 Dhaka Bengladesh 8,610,000
29 Washington-Baltimore United States 7,563,000
30 Essen-Dusseldorf Germany 7,500,000
31 Lima Peru 7,420,000
32 Taipei Taiwan 7,260,000
33 Bangkok Thailand 7,250,000
34 San Francisco United States 7,093,000
35 Bogata Colombia 6,990,000
36 Chennai (Madras) India 6,700,000
37 Hong Kong China 6,610,000
38 Hyderabad India 6,390,000
39 Lahore Pakistan 5,920,000
40 Philadelphia United States 5,834,000
41 Kinshasa Congo 5,750,000
42 Boston United States 5,716,000
43 Santiago Chile 5,610,000
44 Johannesburg South Africa 5,530,000
45 Toronto-Hamilton-Oshawa Canada 5,470,000
46 Bangalore India 5,430,000
47 St. Petersburg Russia 5,410,000
48 Dallas-Fort Worth United States 5,377,000
49 Detroit United States 5,358,000
50 Miami-West Palm Beach United States 5,008,000
Source: Prepared by Demographia based upon multiple sources, the most important being national census administrations in the Canada, Japan and the United States, Rand McNally, Thomas Brinkhoff: Principal Agglomerations and Cities of the World and local sources.

 

[wjfox]

On and on and on this argument goes...

 

[streetscapeer]

Exact numbers are in the Berlin thread that is now locked. Check it. From memory, it's about 18 million in NY, 10.1 million in Paris, and 8.5 million in London.

thanks a lot for the info, that's what I thought!

 

[streetscapeer]

Yes and no, because you have to keep in mind that since people who live in the metro area work in the city, during the day (and also for the nightlife to a lesser extend), a lot of people you will see in the city will in fact not be from the urban core but from the metro area.

that's true to certain extent, but all the commuters from the metro area aren't going to the core, many are going to the suburbs...


...and when I think about the immensity of a city, I'm not really thinking about the far-flung suburbs and fragments, like Poughkeepsie, NY or Plainfield, NJ....I'm thinking about the huge urban area of the city....In NY most of the nightlife, workforce, etc are coming form the tight-knit urban area of 18 million than the far-flung metro (the extra 4 million that live more than an hour or so that don't really identify with the core city)

 

[Nick in Atlanta]

In NY most of the nightlife, workforce, etc are coming form the tight-knit urban area of 18 million than the far-flung metro (the extra 4 million that live more than an hour or so that don't really identify with the core city)

This is a subjective measurement of a city. It's based on people's mental state; those that live more than an hour from the core city (Manhattan) don't identify with it. Yet if you go out to the Hamptons at any time in the summer, especially the very wealthy towns like Southhampton, but also areas on the North Fork, you'll find people who not only identify with Manhattan, but also identify with areas of Manhattan, like Park Avenue.

The same thing for areas of Fairfield County in Connecticut. The wealthy towns have residents who are more than an hour from Manhattan, yet still identify with the core city as they work there. But, there are areas of New Jersey that are less than an hour from Manhattan but people there don't identify with the central core because they are trying to get away from it and Parsippany is as far as they were able to get for now.

 

[streetscapeer]

This is a subjective measurement of a city. It's based on people's mental state; those that live more than an hour from the core city (Manhattan) don't identify with it. Yet if you go out to the Hamptons at any time in the summer, especially the very wealthy towns like Southhampton, but also areas on the North Fork, you'll find people who not only identify with Manhattan, but also identify with areas of Manhattan, like Park Avenue.

The same thing for areas of Fairfield County in Connecticut. The wealthy towns have residents who are more than an hour from Manhattan, yet still identify with the core city as they work there. But, there are areas of New Jersey that are less than an hour from Manhattan but people there don't identify with the central core because they are trying to get away from it and Parsippany is as far as they were able to get for now.

fair enough, that statement was more speaking about generalities not the specifics of NY... it's a simple generality, people outside the urban area don't identify with the urban area as much as those within...of course there are going to be interesting quirks like vacation spots for the rich people of the core, or when a stateline cuts through your urban area, etc.

 

[eklips]

It depends, for Paris as an example, I live in the outer southern suburbs, and a lot of people here feel connected to the city of Paris, they only moved because of unafordable housing prices. Given that in a lot of inner cities in the world housing is getting more and more expencive, this must not be an exeption

 

[Skabbymuff]

this is going on a bit i feel. londons just another great city. it just happens to be the largest in europe, and a pretty cool place too. there are so many big and cool places all over the planet, why cant we just leave it at that?

 

[Skabbymuff]

and while im at it, MANY other cities are as guilty of boosting their figures, not just london, this thread is a heap of sh.....

 

[The Hunted]

I would regard Metropolitan London as the area inside the M25 and the area covered by the Underground.

Underground, yes.
M25 area,no - it's to rural in parts.