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dreams of Babylon rising
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most probably a scam. since they would need customers to buy into this, which simply won't happen to be honest.

These are all private enterprises on the "dubai" style where they want to sell these condos and villas to "investors" (money launderers and "flippers"). It does have a chance of working if KRG offers very laisez faire banking / transfer and "cash depositing" options to these foreign "investors" who can fly in to KRG airports with as much cash and gold as they can carry (no questions asked).

In such a scenario these may in fact be built.

Whether such is a good, sustainable and long-term development strategy for KRG is something I honestly disagree with very strongly! The local people wouldn't get a look in, they may get some jobs though.

I would rather investments went into more medium-long term thinking with a more "holistic" approach for KRG. kRG needs to develop:
-Farming - get people back out of the cities and rebuild the villages, and promote and develop farming.
-renewable energy - develop wind and solar power as well as other sources (like the dilapidated hydroelectric sector).
-Cement and Steel industries (become at least self sufficient in these)
-Food processing industries (to process all the produce that the re-invigorated kurdish farming sector produces).
-Oil and gas sector (export oriented and stipulating local labour and management)
-develop key sectors where Kurdistan has inherent natural adbvantages including tourism, create proper tourism sector with sky resorts, good hotels, reliable railways interconnecting cities with airports, as well as reasonable prices (best example to copy would be the turkish one).
-Create low cost housing for the populace that cannot be speculated on.
-reduce car and truck usage by creating a national rail company (or in conjunction with IRR) and build both the rolling stock / locomotives as well as civil engineering works locally for a complete inner and inter city railway network. make it electrified and run it off nuclear or renewable energy to free up oil and gas for export... this alone will employ a hundred thousand.

and in all these sectors, create local companies with the capacity to create the above and take the technology forward and be world leaders. You don't need to try and compete with developed countries in microelectronics, automotive, aerospace technologies since they have decades and hundreds of billions of dollars in manpower, resources, small company supply chains invested in these that you will absolutely positively fail in attempting to match. So seek out areas where you have natural advantages and concentrate on developing them (and guarantee your own food security first of all).

Look. Switzerland doesn't have a single "skyscraper" and nobody's calling them backward. Whereas central african capitals very often DO HAVE many skyscrapers (doesn't make them developed). Kurdistan and Iraq are just being completely and absolutely RETARDED in their view of what "developed" means (Dubai being a horrendous example which is completely and diametrically opposite to what iraq is and should be!).
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I agree Dubai is the worst example to look at... what I don't understand is even if this project is real why on earth a village or as they call it 'city' for 3000 families (since they say 6000 families between both cities) would need such a huge center with 6 towers ranging from 50-150 floors.. would it not be better to put that in suleymanyah center? .......

Indeed Kurdistan needs a railway, I think suleymanya and erbil have plans for railways, I saw it on T.V.
 

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dreams of Babylon rising
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to be honest the plans (excluding those horrible towers) do look neat!

but the towers???? Is HSBC moving its HQ there so it would need that much expensive office space? Or are they planning on moving all the bloated ministries and staff there? (and just like dubai, I can see they haven't thought too deeply about the "traffic" and "transport" issue that arises from having such a high density "centre" without sufficient roads / parking / junctions / metros... (Dubai just built the buildings but forgot to see how people would get in and out of them!!!)...

I mean those offices / hotels / malls / apartments would have 5000+ cars trying to get there every morning at 8.30am!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
to be honest the plans (excluding those horrible towers) do look neat!

but the towers???? Is HSBC moving its HQ there so it would need that much expensive office space? Or are they planning on moving all the bloated ministries and staff there? (and just like dubai, I can see they haven't thought too deeply about the "traffic" and "transport" issue that arises from having such a high density "centre" without sufficient roads / parking / junctions / metros... (Dubai just built the buildings but forgot to see how people would get in and out of them!!!)...

I mean those offices / hotels / malls / apartments would have 5000+ cars trying to get there every morning at 8.30am!!!
Lol. 2 towers of 75 floors would be enough to be honest, along with smaller office buildings. I guess if this the purpose of this is a 'business town' then it's understandable but still I don't see the point of it being 15 km away from suleymanya without trains.
 

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sorry but thats what all kurds want - another dubai with a strong economy to which all there demands will be accepted .Nichirvan barzani the ex-prime minister promised the kurdish people just this.

kurdistan is and will be beautiful with these projects it will make it nore successful but the mistkaes made in building dubai will be considered .

i really hope this isnt a scam project and inshalla it wont be
Why trade the beautiful mountainous landscape of Kurdistan for a row of random high rise buildings, each to their own but as a Kurd i know what i prefer.
 

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dreams of Babylon rising
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Dreams of Babylon Rising
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the strongest economies in mid east at the present time are Qatar's and KSA. but Iraq SHOULD NOT follow them, we must find our own way. by having smart investments, eventual diversification from petrodollars, and a strong unified domestic market ! but as of now, were not heading in that direction. but at least Kurdistan is benefiting from tourism and trade. and not only petrodollars.
 

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the strongest economies in mid east at the present time are Qatar's and KSA. but Iraq SHOULD NOT follow them, we must find our own way. by having smart investments, eventual diversification from petrodollars, and a strong unified domestic market ! but as of now, were not heading in that direction. but at least Kurdistan is benefiting from tourism and trade. and not only petrodollars.
DW we have really smart brains still working there ! eg : the governor of the CBI ... Sinan Al Chabibi ... nd I rlly hope that they wont follow them !
 

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dreams of Babylon rising
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DW we have really smart brains still working there ! eg : the governor of the CBI ... Sinan Al Chabibi ... nd I rlly hope that they wont follow them !
what is wrong with iraq in 10 easy steps:
1-population elects retards based on ethnic/sectarian slants
2-retards give themselves huge salaries and don't even attend parliament
3-retards appoint retards as ministers
4-retarded ministers appoint friends and family (cretinism is hereditary) as director generals and positions of authority in the ministries
5-government grabs all the oil money and distributes it to the ministries
6-ministries misuse the (limited) funds and keep the people who elected them quiet by employing half the nation in the state sector to do nothing (and use all the country's oil on salaries/pensions/military)
7-the half of the population who don't have state jobs work in providing some services to the ones who do, there's not enough money velocity for that so about 40% of the population is underemployed
8-the underemployed go into crime / terrorism / depression / emigration
9-the lack of money velocity ensures that the private sector remains a small marginal provider of little shops, bakeries and basic restaurants.
10-everyone complains because they "don't know" where the oil money goes, even though most of it ends up in their pockets via state jobs/pensions - leaving nothing for infrastructure or economic stimulus / industrial investments.
 

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dreams of Babylon rising
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Sheytan, what you're saying is just about the Arabic part of Iraq... in Iraqi Kurdistan there is a lot of work, no, better then that; they heir Indonesians, Chinese, Vietnamese etc. to do their work, because there arent enough people for all the work there is.

And Iraqi Kurdistan isnt depending on oil only. There are a lot of foreign company's, tourism resorts, gass, gold etc. What does the other parts of Iraq got besides of oil? I'm curious about that. And another thing: the GDP per Capita in Iraq is $3.570. On another forum I read once that the GDP per capita in Iraqi Kurdistan is over $10.500. That's even more then Turkey and a lot of other country's in the middle-east, and Iraqi Kurdistan isn't even a country but a self controlling region inside Iraq!

I think the economy of Iraqi Kurdistan will be one of the strongest in the middle-east, when they become independent and they (we) get our own country :)

But I have a question; what's the area in square KM of Iraqi Kurdistan? Some sources note 40.000, other sources 80.000.

And is Kirkuk still a big oil city or are there now places in Iraq where there is more oil then in Kirkuk?
What I said applies to all of Iraq including KRG (based on ethnic / sectarian slants) - see:
1-people voted in kurdistani alliance for their openness and democratic ways? Or because its "the kurdish list"?
2-
3-Hawrami as KRG resources minister?
4-the "whole gang" in the duplicated KRG ministries...

The two positive differences that KRG has over baghdad are:
1-free allocation of land to foreign investors (and actually going through with it).
2-lockdown on security with very harsh esaish/peshmarga/zerevani

the negatives in KRG include:
1-amateurish resource minister that sold kurdistan off to foreign oil interests at an unbelievable loss to KRG (but because he's kurdish he's lauded as a hero! - back to point 1)
2-bitting too much out of "arab Iraq's" 83% which is causing a lot of resentment down south, and seemingly unable to connect the dots as to why KRG is so much wealthier than the rest of iraq as a result!

In my view, KRG should take the positives from Iraq and Iraq the positives from KRG... that would be good for everyone... as long as they stop mentioning the "D" word (Dubai), it can't be much worse than it is now.

As for all the work for indonesians etc... well what I know from Halabja at least doesn't chime in with what you're saying... things are grim for the ordinary people (the ones who don't have a government job or one of the "service" jobs for the government).... which is why to this day (end of 2010) young people are trying to emigrate from Kurdistan (and I can presume you are a young kurd who's living outside Kurdistan? and who hasn't returned).


some backround (though I've discussed this at length in earlier threads:
KRG is taking advantage of its "tipping point" in goverment to obtain more funding out of Iraq than it is entitled to (17% KRG "only" + a large chunk out of Iraq's 83% + reexporting iraqi crude oil as "heavy fuel oil" that it obtains for free etc...) so yes KRG has double the income from oil that the rest of Iraq receives + its peaceful thus attracts investment from both iraqis from other regions seeking a safe haven as well as expat kurds and international companies wanting a base in iraq but afraid of going to baghdad.

kirkuk oil in the "great race"
Kirkuk has the 4th largest oil reserves by province in Iraq. It has not had the "largest" share of reserves in Iraq since about 1955 or so? (correct the year its not 100% accurate). The top 3 provinces are: Basra, Missan, Salahuddin/diyala (baghdad east) followed by kirkuk in 4th, Nassiriya in 5th and Erbil in 6th.

The rest of Iraq has the following "resources" and "economic facilities":
-phosphates mines and plants.
-15+ Cement plants (27M/annum nameplate capacity)
-Petrochemical complexes with 700k/day capacity - adding plastics/ethylene units now.
-Steel Mill (Basra), and "recycling mills" Baghdad, Mosul, Diwaniya, Babil etc...
-Aluminium foundry (nassiriya)
-CNC machine tool manufacturing (recently restarted in Taji)
-Armoured Vehicle assembly plants (Baghdad, Babil, Basra)
-railway locomotive assembly and overhaul
-Railway track production / sleepers etc....
-Farming (wheat, barley, rice) as well as drip irrigation farming in the deserts.
-Glass production factory (ramadi)
-Semi-conductor production (ad dawr - this is closed now)
-Pharmaceutical factories including active materials (mosul, samara)
-Industrial salts and processing
-Sugar processing (missan plants)
-shipbuilding (small fibreglass boats as well as large boats up to 7500tonne) basra
-Bus and Truck body production and automotive assembly (iskandariya)
-"religious tourism" that attracts 800k foreign visitors per annum...
-hundreds of ancient historical sites with potential for development (touristic)
-Dozens of lakes and natural water bodies for tourism and fisheries
-Several large tourist resorts including: habaniya, tharthar, babil palace, basra palace, baghdad island, um al khanazir, sindbad island, etc...
-

I can go on all night... but you get the point.



my personal view, don't be offended for no offence is intended!
In my personal opinion Kurdistan taking independence from Iraq will result in income from oil dropping by 70% for KRG as well as embargo on its oil exports (it is landlocked), and possibly a full embargo be the three neighbouring states (Iraq, Iran, Turkey), and kurdistan is not even 50% self sufficient in food... I may be completely wrong, but seeing by what's happening in Iraq, I think Barzani / Barham and Talabani probably agree with me rather than you?

Of course if Kurdistan splits amicably from Iraq, it can retain access to the sea via Iraq and can export its oil and gas via Iraq's pipeline infrastructure and import its requirements via Iraq. Kurdistan's oil contracts are very favourable to the oil companies and unfavourable to the KRG (compared to the Iraqi oil ministry contracts) and therefore increases in oil price and production will increase the income of the oil companies investing in Kurdistan much more than Kurdistani citizens (you can blame hawrami for that). However Kurdistan will at least be free from any alien rule, and if you are nationalist, taking a hit on guaranteed income is a small price to pay for freedom.

finally my personal view is that all of Iraq (or its regions, whether they stay together or not) need to have a completely new outlook on governance, state-populace relationship as well as the level of intrusion that the government has on the country. Trust me KRG isn't a shining star (for 12 years KRG was completely impoverished and its youth were trying every technique to get out of Kurdistan), only the post 2003 "windfall" of increased oil income, "double allocation" from budget as well as the "capital flight" from baghdad gave the barzanis a lucky "cover" for their corruption and economic incompetence. Its sad that in kurdistan as well as the rest of iraq, genuine awareness of economics, politics, democracy as well as the rights and obligations of citizens is very weak...
 

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- Sheytan + 1000 ! all what you said is 100% true !
- worldwar2boy : even iraqi KRG , is the same ! alot of money is being wasted ... most people in the goverment there are from 2 families only , Barazani and Talabai family only !
its like Saudi Arabia !! ALOT of money is being wasted on the royal family only !
guys building a street and a building doesnt mean that the country or the city or wateva has a good economy !
Basrah is building a big stadium and they built 2 nice hotels , and they have the only sea port in iraq .. and most oil is there... does that mean that its economy is strong ! no !
although i thnk that basrah is the future in iraq ! NOT Baghdad NOT Erbil NOT Najaf !
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Sheytan I don't agree with you at all. First of all what extra spending are you talking about? I assume you mean the funding for the peshmerga? well according to the constitution Iraq is supposed to fund security forces which include the KRG, this is becuase the 17% the KRG receives is after the Iraqi government cuts out the defense budget and other spending, so why should we use our share of the money when the defense budget has already been cut out?

In regards to your 'amateurish resource minister' the contracts have been amended to be a closer to that of shahristanis demands, though unless the contracts are abit easier on the company in the KRG no major company will invest as the real deal is further south, and you are exaggerating about the prices. Besides I believe the main problem is that the KRG handed blocks in disputed areas like akre and shikhan and not becuase of prices.

In regards to your 'corruption' from 91 - 2003. Well Kurdistan was under international sanctions AND Iraqi sanctions which means saddam cut electricity and other things, therefore the KRG had to import everything + buy electricity from Iran and Turkey, and I don't see much corruption going on with such a small budget anyway, I'm not saying there was non but not as much as you people make it seem like.

Also, don't forget Iraq needs us just as much as we need you, if you want to get to Europe you have to pass through Kurdistan to Turkey, not to mention water.

Also, enough with comparing Iraqs infrastructure with that of kurdistans... yes Iraq went through some wars, but the kurds have been in war well since the borders were drawn up, constant = war means no development and people could hardly get to school.
 

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What I said applies to all of Iraq including KRG (based on ethnic / sectarian slants) - see:
1-people voted in kurdistani alliance for their openness and democratic ways? Or because its "the kurdish list"?
2-
3-Hawrami as KRG resources minister?
4-the "whole gang" in the duplicated KRG ministries...

The two positive differences that KRG has over baghdad are:
1-free allocation of land to foreign investors (and actually going through with it).
2-lockdown on security with very harsh esaish/peshmarga/zerevani

the negatives in KRG include:
1-amateurish resource minister that sold kurdistan off to foreign oil interests at an unbelievable loss to KRG (but because he's kurdish he's lauded as a hero! - back to point 1)
2-bitting too much out of "arab Iraq's" 83% which is causing a lot of resentment down south, and seemingly unable to connect the dots as to why KRG is so much wealthier than the rest of iraq as a result!

In my view, KRG should take the positives from Iraq and Iraq the positives from KRG... that would be good for everyone... as long as they stop mentioning the "D" word (Dubai), it can't be much worse than it is now.

As for all the work for indonesians etc... well what I know from Halabja at least doesn't chime in with what you're saying... things are grim for the ordinary people (the ones who don't have a government job or one of the "service" jobs for the government).... which is why to this day (end of 2010) young people are trying to emigrate from Kurdistan (and I can presume you are a young kurd who's living outside Kurdistan? and who hasn't returned).


some backround (though I've discussed this at length in earlier threads:
KRG is taking advantage of its "tipping point" in goverment to obtain more funding out of Iraq than it is entitled to (17% KRG "only" + a large chunk out of Iraq's 83% + reexporting iraqi crude oil as "heavy fuel oil" that it obtains for free etc...) so yes KRG has double the income from oil that the rest of Iraq receives + its peaceful thus attracts investment from both iraqis from other regions seeking a safe haven as well as expat kurds and international companies wanting a base in iraq but afraid of going to baghdad.

kirkuk oil in the "great race"
Kirkuk has the 4th largest oil reserves by province in Iraq. It has not had the "largest" share of reserves in Iraq since about 1955 or so? (correct the year its not 100% accurate). The top 3 provinces are: Basra, Missan, Salahuddin/diyala (baghdad east) followed by kirkuk in 4th, Nassiriya in 5th and Erbil in 6th.

The rest of Iraq has the following "resources" and "economic facilities":
-phosphates mines and plants.
-15+ Cement plants (27M/annum nameplate capacity)
-Petrochemical complexes with 700k/day capacity - adding plastics/ethylene units now.
-Steel Mill (Basra), and "recycling mills" Baghdad, Mosul, Diwaniya, Babil etc...
-Aluminium foundry (nassiriya)
-CNC machine tool manufacturing (recently restarted in Taji)
-Armoured Vehicle assembly plants (Baghdad, Babil, Basra)
-railway locomotive assembly and overhaul
-Railway track production / sleepers etc....
-Farming (wheat, barley, rice) as well as drip irrigation farming in the deserts.
-Glass production factory (ramadi)
-Semi-conductor production (ad dawr - this is closed now)
-Pharmaceutical factories including active materials (mosul, samara)
-Industrial salts and processing
-Sugar processing (missan plants)
-shipbuilding (small fibreglass boats as well as large boats up to 7500tonne) basra
-Bus and Truck body production and automotive assembly (iskandariya)
-"religious tourism" that attracts 800k foreign visitors per annum...
-hundreds of ancient historical sites with potential for development (touristic)
-Dozens of lakes and natural water bodies for tourism and fisheries
-Several large tourist resorts including: habaniya, tharthar, babil palace, basra palace, baghdad island, um al khanazir, sindbad island, etc...
-

I can go on all night... but you get the point.



my personal view, don't be offended for no offence is intended!
In my personal opinion Kurdistan taking independence from Iraq will result in income from oil dropping by 70% for KRG as well as embargo on its oil exports (it is landlocked), and possibly a full embargo be the three neighbouring states (Iraq, Iran, Turkey), and kurdistan is not even 50% self sufficient in food... I may be completely wrong, but seeing by what's happening in Iraq, I think Barzani / Barham and Talabani probably agree with me rather than you?

Of course if Kurdistan splits amicably from Iraq, it can retain access to the sea via Iraq and can export its oil and gas via Iraq's pipeline infrastructure and import its requirements via Iraq. Kurdistan's oil contracts are very favourable to the oil companies and unfavourable to the KRG (compared to the Iraqi oil ministry contracts) and therefore increases in oil price and production will increase the income of the oil companies investing in Kurdistan much more than Kurdistani citizens (you can blame hawrami for that). However Kurdistan will at least be free from any alien rule, and if you are nationalist, taking a hit on guaranteed income is a small price to pay for freedom.

finally my personal view is that all of Iraq (or its regions, whether they stay together or not) need to have a completely new outlook on governance, state-populace relationship as well as the level of intrusion that the government has on the country. Trust me KRG isn't a shining star (for 12 years KRG was completely impoverished and its youth were trying every technique to get out of Kurdistan), only the post 2003 "windfall" of increased oil income, "double allocation" from budget as well as the "capital flight" from baghdad gave the barzanis a lucky "cover" for their corruption and economic incompetence. Its sad that in kurdistan as well as the rest of iraq, genuine awareness of economics, politics, democracy as well as the rights and obligations of citizens is very weak...
well said...no offence but kurdistan will not split from iraq, they just have too much interest in iraq to do so
 
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