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Sydney Metro West:potential South-East Extension

Current threads about the west metro and the general transport threads have a lot of speculation about the eastern extension of the West Metro. I thought it was a good idea to have a separate thread for this topic.
Brizer and others have pointed out the transport problems in east Waterloo and east Zetland including the inadequacy of green square station.

There has been speculation that a metro station is needed in the area, but the problem is where? The area abounds with new apartment buildings leading to the explosion in population so there is very available space.

One area I had in mind is South of the Moore Park View Hotel, which itself will have to be part demolished for the Lachlan streets works. This area would included the derelict shops, the shell service station and the ex water board site. Not sure what area is required for a station but judging by the size of the site at Cope St for the west waterloo station it would be similar.
More apartments are not required for the over-station development, as there is an enormous supply within 10 minutes walk of this site.
The news media is aghast at the revelation that parking spots are selling for $200,000, maybe a developer or the government would consider a multi story parking garage with bus interchange, instead of apartments. The area is beside the eastern distributor.
 

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I think the first couple of stops after the Sydney CBD will depend on where they choose to put the Sydney CBD station(s) for the West Metro.

If they choose a northern station at Barangaroo/ Wynyard or Martin Place and somewhere else then you could also include stations after the Sydney CBD on Oxford St and Surry Hills before the Green Square Precinct.

If they choose a southern station at Pitt St/ Town Hall then you could include Central and maybe Surry Hills before the Green Square Precinct.

My preference would be for a CBD station at Martin Place, then Oxford St, Surry Hills, Lachlan St, Gunyama Park and UNSW (Change to/ from light rail).

I think light rail will be extended from Kingsford to Malabar in the near future and will suffice for many years before the need for a metro extension past UNSW. That is of course unless there is very significant urban renewal between Kingsford and Malabar during the next 20 years.
 

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I think the first couple of stops after the Sydney CBD will depend on where they choose to put the Sydney CBD station(s) for the West Metro.

If they choose a northern station at Barangaroo/ Wynyard or Martin Place and somewhere else then you could also include stations after the Sydney CBD on Oxford St and Surry Hills before the Green Square Precinct.

If they choose a southern station at Pitt St/ Town Hall then you could include Central and maybe Surry Hills before the Green Square Precinct.

My preference would be for a CBD station at Martin Place, then Oxford St, Surry Hills, Lachlan St, Gunyama Park and UNSW (Change to/ from light rail).

I think light rail will be extended from Kingsford to Malabar in the near future and will suffice for many years before the need for a metro extension past UNSW. That is of course unless there is very significant urban renewal between Kingsford and Malabar during the next 20 years.
Sounds good

Ideally something like
Martin Place
Taylor Square/Crown Street
Surry Hills (Devonshire for light rail)
East Redfern (Redfern Park for some more genetrification/development)
Green Square
Rosebery/Beaconsfield???
Kingsford
 

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Sounds good

Ideally something like
Martin Place
Taylor Square/Crown Street
Surry Hills (Devonshire for light rail)
East Redfern (Redfern Park for some more genetrification/development)
Green Square
Rosebery/Beaconsfield???
Kingsford

Some of those might be too close together? I kinda got the idea they didn't do that as the stations cost heaps

Martin Place to Taylor Sq - around 1.7km in a straight line
Taylor Square to Ward Park - around 1km in a straight line
Ward Park to East Redfern - probably less than 1km in a straight line

..so on, so forth.
 

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Some of those might be too close together? I kinda got the idea they didn't do that as the stations cost heaps

Martin Place to Taylor Sq - around 1.7km in a straight line
Taylor Square to Ward Park - around 1km in a straight line
Ward Park to East Redfern - probably less than 1km in a straight line

..so on, so forth.
True
I get the impression that if they have stops at Taylor Square and Green Square then they will only fork out for one in between

unfortunately won't do much for the large population coming to the area
 

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Couple of comments on Green SQuare/Zetland location:

Lachlan Street and Gunyama Park are too close together for metro. Best option near Lachlan Street would be Dyuralya Square on Gadigal Av just south of Lachlan St, currently u/c. Big surge in population now and in near future around Dyuralya Sq.

Best located option in Green SQuare East is Joynton Park but good luck with that as dog walkers of Victoria Park rise is barking rage!

Best overall option is probably Gunyama Park east end on George Julius Avenue. Gunyama Park is just beginning construction though ownership issues will stall the east end for a while. Gunyama Park would also serve Zetland [Victoria Park & Epsom Park (currently undergoing big redevelopment - Gunyama Park is in the Epsom Park Precinct)], North Rosebery (being rebuilt), and Waterloo [Lachlan St to O'Dea Av part].
Green SQuare Light Rail or bus on Zetland Avenue would provide a link to GSQ Railway Station - they would only be about 800m apart so walking is an option.

AFTERTHOUGHT: east of Gunyama Park, between George Julius Av and Link Rd is the huge Sutton's of Rosebery (sic) site which would provide better value capture options and not take anything away from parklands. CoS would have to be battered into providing a less conservative DCP for the area given it is above a metro station.

&
Redfern Park - heritage - should be left alone and the Redfern Estate site east across Elizabeth Street is a better option as the current buildings will be razed to make way for redevelopment.

~~~
 

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May I suggest my idea and lets see if you guys can improve upon it.

Lets suppose Metro west takes a north to south path in the CBD with a station at Town Hall and Central. At both locations you get a Sydney metro interchange.

If you accept that starting premise then you end up at a station (platform?) box at Central underneath platforms 8-11.

Now if you look for a potential next station you'll quickly realise that the nearest point that has a strong demand for a new station is Sydney University, at their proposed Maze Crescent location which is only 1.3Km away from Central.

You could of course choose to call this a terminus, but what I'm doing here is looking for a route that is a good match for Metro West - that is it needs high capacity. And looking for interchange opportunities.

Here's where I go.

- Sydney Uni
- Newtown (obvious interchange)
- Marrickville (opportunistic but worthy. Query how much high rise is possible?)
- Sydenham (interchange)
- Sydney Airport
- Kogarah (relief to T4 plus development)
- Sutherland (yes, direct)
- Conversion of the Cronulla branch

It might seem a little crazy at first, but let me give the rationale here.

First of all its about having a good purpose for a metro that ought to be non branched and high capacity. In other words, if you keep to the principle that it must not branch, where do you go to to make most use of its capacity? Well, you head south. You take in as much interchange/relief as possible. You take in the airport. You take in the Cronulla line.

Secondly, one objection will be the fact that the Cronulla line does not need 30 trains per hour. So, you build in a turnback at Kogarah and you simply send every other train to Cronulla and eventually (as core frequency increases) you send every third train to Cronulla. So you either sending up to 8 trains per hour to Cronulla, or up to 10 trains per hour. That eases constraints with the turn back at Cronulla itself.

Thirdly you're going to adopt the attitude that a metro to the southeast (EastGardens, Maroubra etc) is a worthwhile pursuit, but you're going to solve this problem separately.

Fourth I'm certain this concept will offend those that believe that a metro has to have regular, tight stops. Well, no, it really doesn't. What you're doing here is having 6 stops between Sutherland and Central and with that a couple of fairly fast runs, particularly the express from Sutherland to Kogarah. Why? Because its game changing for those south of the George's River. it takes so much time out of that journey that a) you get a surge in demand and b) you can afford to do more densification along the Cronulla line.

Fifth I'm going to stick my neck out here and suggest a single station for Sydney Airport. Which means there are a number of technical solutions to having a single station serving both domestic and international.

What this does is then free you to think about solutions for all the other places you'd like mass transit to and for which you can either provide light rail or in the case of the southeast possibly a metro. Think laterally how you'd take advantage of the route described. Where you'd branch light rail from it and so on.

You can probably turn south from Sydney Uni and take in areas that are on the way to the airport. I'm thinking closer to the canal, like Huntley Street or western end of Doody Street. Alexandria in other words. Then go to the airport and then Kogarah. This would be at the expense of a connection to Sydenham.

And just to reiterate, if you do have an airport station on Metro West you can do other out of the box things like instead of having a southeast metro that goes to the CBD, you can go Maroubra, EastGardens, Botany, Airport, Sydenham (Yes a self contained metro that only runs for 8.3Km and provides those southeast suburbs lots of connectivity and a fast path the CBD. And incidentally also a decent path to Parramatta via Sydenham/Bankstown and an extension of that line to Parramatta.
 

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Interesting thoughts ZW.

How about something like this long term? Unsure whether you extend from Westmead to the new Airport or Norwest (the latter because you build a fast line from Badgerys to Parra and onto the CBD).

Well... I'd perhaps be a little more ambitious. Lets start with Metro West. I would let Metro West take over an existing track pair to St. Marys. There is a good reason for this. It adds a lot of capacity west of Parramatta.

This would force a change to T5. Your options are either:

A: Eliminate T5 and run services through Leppington as a branch of T2. I'd see this as an ok interim phase.

B: Underground T5 and run it as far as Parramatta. I'll leave what happens north of Parramatta to later.

I'm fine with "M3" from Macarthur to Schofields. It should be 130Km/hr capable.

Sydney Metro M1. I'm happy with it going to Bankstown. A Cabramatta extension is certainly an easy option. I guess what I'm puzzling over is fairness to those from Liverpool who probably won't get a HSR station. It could be argued that an upgraded T5 to Parramatta could cut the Liverpool to Parramatta time to 17 mins given conversion to metro. An extension of M1 from Bankstown to Parramatta is still an option but Cabramatta does have its merits (getting done sooner).

What you've done with T1/T3 does perhaps have legs - especially in a HSR scenario where you could even discontinue passenger services between Cowan and Hawkesbury River. I'd still aim for T1 to be limited stops between St Marys and Central and then at most 2 stopping patterns northwards.

Looking south. I'm not that fussed about two logical sectors (T6 and T4) sharing track from Sutherland to Hurstville. I'd use the advent of a metro to fix this. Tbh a metro interchange at Miranda is going to cause people west of Miranda to backtrack to Miranda and interchange. One possibility is to simply run Sutherland to Cronulla as a shuttle. My preference would be for a metro to take over the Cronulla line at Sutherland. That leaves with exactly one logical sector having its own track pair from Bondi Junction to Helensburgh.

The Macquarie Park to Flemington and Hurstville line (M5) makes sense. What I would suggest is going to Kogarah or the airport and then to the east (Maroubra). Having said this, the extension of T4 south would work.

I still have loose ends including the Richmond line which for now is tacked on to T1. I'd be tempted to tie a north-south line that goes through Parramatta to Revesby.

More later
 

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Well... I'd perhaps be a little more ambitious. Lets start with Metro West. I would let Metro West take over an existing track pair to St. Marys. There is a good reason for this. It adds a lot of capacity west of Parramatta.

This would force a change to T5. Your options are either:

A: Eliminate T5 and run services through Leppington as a branch of T2. I'd see this as an ok interim phase.

B: Underground T5 and run it as far as Parramatta. I'll leave what happens north of Parramatta to later.

I'm fine with "M3" from Macarthur to Schofields. It should be 130Km/hr capable.

Sydney Metro M1. I'm happy with it going to Bankstown. A Cabramatta extension is certainly an easy option. I guess what I'm puzzling over is fairness to those from Liverpool who probably won't get a HSR station. It could be argued that an upgraded T5 to Parramatta could cut the Liverpool to Parramatta time to 17 mins given conversion to metro. An extension of M1 from Bankstown to Parramatta is still an option but Cabramatta does have its merits (getting done sooner).

What you've done with T1/T3 does perhaps have legs - especially in a HSR scenario where you could even discontinue passenger services between Cowan and Hawkesbury River. I'd still aim for T1 to be limited stops between St Marys and Central and then at most 2 stopping patterns northwards.

Looking south. I'm not that fussed about two logical sectors (T6 and T4) sharing track from Sutherland to Hurstville. I'd use the advent of a metro to fix this. Tbh a metro interchange at Miranda is going to cause people west of Miranda to backtrack to Miranda and interchange. One possibility is to simply run Sutherland to Cronulla as a shuttle. My preference would be for a metro to take over the Cronulla line at Sutherland. That leaves with exactly one logical sector having its own track pair from Bondi Junction to Helensburgh.

The Macquarie Park to Flemington and Hurstville line (M5) makes sense. What I would suggest is going to Kogarah or the airport and then to the east (Maroubra). Having said this, the extension of T4 south would work.

I still have loose ends including the Richmond line which for now is tacked on to T1. I'd be tempted to tie a north-south line that goes through Parramatta to Revesby.

More later
As you know I had the extension from Parramatta to either Blacktown or St Marys in most of my diagrams. That would also still be a option, I deliberately left the line from Westmead terminated in this published diagram as there are a few options here. If that happened the Cumberland line would terminate at Westmead and it does introduce a branch for T1 or work to terminate the Richmond line at Blacktown for Interchange. If you're brave you convert T5 to Metro and extend it to Norwest, I have a diagram, of that somewhere actually. Metro conversions seem off the agenda though.

The temptation here is to leave T1 at 24 TPH DD with Richmond line having multiple Interchange options. If you instead had the Northern line running to the Shore then you could also run longer trains getting T1 up to Metro numbers. There would be 2 patterns (express and local) using 4 tracks from Penrith to Blacktown. Express single pattern from there.

In my diagram, (T6 and T8 current) don't share tracks, they are using a new quad from Sutherland to Hurstville and the current quad to Central.
 

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Cronulla line to Sutherland is the busiest southern branch of the Illawarra line, in peak seats are taken up by Sutherland. Rather than a metro it would be better suited to fill the DDs and ship them into the city as fast as you can, so a tunnel from Sutherland north makes sense for express services, Cronulla & South Coast to a terminus at Central.
 
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