Taiwan People's Identity

pierre-laurent said:

hehehe...yes, and these girls are not "chinese" girls (even if cultural speaking, we can be classified into "han" ethnic group), Taiwanese are used to call theirselves simply "Taiwanese".

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Well, that topic is a little more complex than that

I would agree with you that "people of Taiwan" (at least the majority of us) are of the Han ethnic group and not "Chinese" (as in citizens of PEOPLE's Republic of China). However, as both of us know, there are still many people out there who are ignorant of the difference between being ethnic Han, citizen of PRC and citizen of ROC/Taiwan and they just lump all of us together as simply, "Chinese", which TECHNICALLY not incorrect because when they use the term "Chinese", they ARE referring to the Han ethnic group, not necessarily citizen of PRC or ROC/Taiwan, or even citizens of HK and Macau.

But in any case, even as polls have shown, not ALL Taiwanese ONLY refer themselves as "Taiwanese", some refer themselves as BOTH Taiwanese AND Chinese while a few ONLY refer themselves as Chinese.

Pangu said:

Well, that topic is a little more complex than that

I would agree with you that "people of Taiwan" (at least the majority of us) are of the Han ethnic group and not "Chinese" (as in citizens of PEOPLE's Republic of China). However, as both of us know, there are still many people out there who are ignorant of the difference between being ethnic Han, citizen of PRC and citizen of ROC/Taiwan and they just lump all of us together as simply, "Chinese", which TECHNICALLY not incorrect because when they use the term "Chinese", they ARE referring to the Han ethnic group, not necessarily citizen of PRC or ROC/Taiwan, or even citizens of HK and Macau.

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yes, this topic is SO complex that i had not had force to restart with my thesis on the difference between nation, race, ethnic group, historic-racial concept of nation, nation by collective consciousness, nation in juridical sense(=nationaltity) and so on..i am too lazy at this moment lol. but i pretty agree with ur analysis. foreigners often use "chinese" in a cultural and generic sense and instead of "han" enthic group certainly too "academic".

Pangu said:

But in any case, even as polls have shown, not ALL Taiwanese ONLY refer themselves as "Taiwanese", some refer themselves as BOTH Taiwanese AND Chinese while a few ONLY refer themselves as Chinese.

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i've already viewed these polls, but i think these ones ask people an IN-DEPTH question on their national identity outlook,so these surveys obtain IN-DEPTH answers. but i meant in my former post that in a DAILY CONTEXT,taiwanese people(or people of Taiwan) first answer spontaneousely "taiwanese" when they are questonned on their nationality including people who answers "i am tw and cn at the same time" in these polls and i think that even a part of people who consider theirselves only as cn do it. so i think that we don't disagree, and our points are complementary.

during one of my stays in Tw, i'had view an ex-PFP(pan-blue) lawmaker of Taoyuan(Sun Da-chian)'s placard and his slogan is sth like "new project, new hope, new TAIWAN", interesting no?

pierre-laurent said:

i've already viewed these polls, but i think these ones ask people an IN-DEPTH question on their national identity outlook,so these surveys obtain IN-DEPTH answers. but i meant in my former post that in a DAILY CONTEXT,taiwanese people(or people of Taiwan) first answer spontaneousely "taiwanese" when they are questonned on their nationality including people who answers "i am tw and cn at the same time" in these polls and i think that even a part of people who consider theirselves only as cn do it. so i think that we don't disagree, and our points are complementary.

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In that context, I agree with you.

Even me, a pan-blue supporter and an eventual-unificationist, often say "I am from Taiwan", although I rarely say I am straight-out "Taiwanese" though, unless it's in the context of discussing which part of "China" I'm from, as opposed to being "Cantonese" or "Beijinger". Just as I would say I'm "Texan" (instead of American) to distinguish myself from people from California or New York. But I know many people, even pan-blue, who simply say "Taiwanese" for convenience so they don't have to explain this whole situation to foreigners.

pierre-laurent said:

during one of my stays in Tw, i'had view an ex-PFP(pan-blue) lawmaker of Taoyuan(Sun Da-chian)'s placard and his slogan is sth like "new project, new hope, new TAIWAN", interesting no?

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I'm not surprised. I got a t-shirt from a pan-blue rally back in the 2004 presidential election and there was a slogan in the back (which I can't recall at the moment) but it did have the word "Taiwan" in it.

I think with the current political climate in Taiwan, the pan-blue side has no choice but to use "Taiwan" in place of "Republic of China" in many places to win votes and support. Much like how even anti-war Democrats in the U.S. must point fingers and call terrorists evil without pointing out WHY the Arab world hates the U.S. as the Republicans have strongly ingrained into the American people's minds that if you question the U.S. government, you are not patriotic.

this is the reason why i say it's interesting...to be patriotic, we need first a fatherland and i think Taiwan-ROC is definitively coming its state-nation.(if my memory is good, there also was a tall blue plan of Taiwan on the roof of KMT head-quarter during the presidential election and my uncle(that i like very much) who support NP had called me by msn after the definitive results to say :" a-bian is elected, fxxx! now u must be happy!" ha ha..a funny souvenir(unless for me..))

here is the famous poll (in french sorry) "identité national à taiwan" for national identity in tw, "taiwanais"= taiwanese, "chinois"= chinese and "et"=and. made by mainland affairs ministry.(source: taiwanese representive office in france)

I think in general most foreigners, when they ask you what kind you are, they are curious for your basic cultural heritage, not fully knowing the issue between Taiwan and mainland.

In that case I personally think it's more logical to say that you're Chinese because your language (all 3 dialects), culture and ancestry is Chinese (that is simply not debatable, EXCEPT the native islander race).

If they continue to ask where you're from, then of course Taiwan is the obvious answer. But if you desire to make the point that you are from Taiwan in your first answer, IMO "Chinese from Taiwan" is a good way to put it.

It also depends on where you are. If people in your area generally know about the Taiwan issue, then they would probably understand if you said you are Taiwanese. Again, this "identity" issue is subjective and highly political.

superchan7 said:

I think in general most foreigners, when they ask you what kind you are, they are curious for your basic cultural heritage, not fully knowing the issue between Taiwan and mainland.

In that case I personally think it's more logical to say that you're Chinese because your language (all 3 dialects), culture and ancestry is Chinese (that is simply not debatable, EXCEPT the native islander race).

If they continue to ask where you're from, then of course Taiwan is the obvious answer. But if you desire to make the point that you are from Taiwan in your first answer, IMO "Chinese from Taiwan" is a good way to put it.

It also depends on where you are. If people in your area generally know about the Taiwan issue, then they would probably understand if you said you are Taiwanese. Again, this "identity" issue is subjective and highly political.

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I couldn't have said it better myself.

superchan7 said:

I think in general most foreigners, when they ask you what kind you are, they are curious for your basic cultural heritage, not fully knowing the issue between Taiwan and mainland.

In that case I personally think it's more logical to say that you're Chinese because your language (all 3 dialects), culture and ancestry is Chinese (that is simply not debatable, EXCEPT the native islander race).

If they continue to ask where you're from, then of course Taiwan is the obvious answer. But if you desire to make the point that you are from Taiwan in your first answer, IMO "Chinese from Taiwan" is a good way to put it.

It also depends on where you are. If people in your area generally know about the Taiwan issue, then they would probably understand if you said you are Taiwanese. Again, this "identity" issue is subjective and highly political.

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omg! yellow perilo had said exactly the same things than you several months ago. if i knew it, then i had saved my former reply..lol

first, i think that Taiwanese people live above all for theirselves,they have their own existence which doesn't depend on the foreigners' outlook. if you consider that this is foreigners who have the right to determine who you're, i only can disagree with you. if they don't know the issues between Taiwan and China, this is them who must get knowledge and this not us who must adapt ourselves to their ignorance.

on the other hand, i think there isn't any logical relationship which says if your ancestors were from a such country and belonged to a such culture, then you MUST belong to a such country forever. why? you may answer me that it's natural. yes but why natural? who has decidéd that it's natural? in the past some poeple also believed that the slavery was "natural" for some races considered as inferior(including asian peoples). but now we know that it's scientifically wrong. a lot of things which were considered as "natural" "logical"in the past are actually only false and backward believes. so i think there is not an absolute realationship between race and cuture on the one hand , nationality and state on the other hand. a same ethnic group who share a same culture can perfectly live in several states and to form several nations or peoples (Syrian and Lebanese belong to a same race and speak a same language, but even Syrian are viewed as foreigners by Lebanese). or on the contrary, several national groups can perfectly live in a same state (Suisse).so there is nothing which is absolutly "logical" in this domain and possibilties are numerous.

and i think if Taiwanese consider or find natural to call theirselves "Taiwanese", it's their right, it's simply the result of a particulary evolution of the taiwanese history. (i don't see why we must be called "chinese from Taiwan", if we don't feel this need or find it odd)there is nothing extraordinary in all that.

pierre-laurent said:

first, i think that Taiwanese people live above all for theirselves,they have their own existence which doesn't depend on the foreigners' outlook. if you consider that this is foreigners who have the right to determine who you're, i only can disagree with you. if they don't know the issues between Taiwan and China, this is them who must get knowledge and this not us who must adapt ourselves to their ignorance.

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I agree with you that it's ultimately Taiwanese who get to determine their own identity, certainly not foreigners.

However, I didn't get the impression from superchan7 that we should let foreigners dictate our identity. Instead, he was merely pointing out the fact that most foreigners don't understand the complex situation between mainland China and Taiwan and more often than not, just clump all of us together as "Chinese" and when they do, they aren't referring to us being citizens of the People's Republic of China, but Chinese in a cultural/ethnic sense.

pierre-laurent said:

on the other hand, i think there isn't any logical relationship which says if your ancestors were from a such country and belonged to a such culture, then you MUST belong to a such country forever. why? you may answer me that it's natural. yes but why natural? who has decidéd that it's natural? in past some poeple also believed that the slavery was "natural" for some races considered as inferior(including asian peoples). but now we know that it's scientifically wrong. a lot of things which were considered as "natural" "logical"in the past are actually only false and backward believes. so i think there is not an absolute realationship between race and cuture on the one hand , nationality and state on the other hand. a same ethnic group who share a same culture can perfectly live in several states and to form several nations or peoples (Syrian and Lebanese belong to a same race speak a same language, but even Syrian are viewed as foreigners by Lebanese). or on the contrary, several national groups can perfectly live in the same state (Suisse).so there is nothing "logical" in this domain and possibilties are numerous.

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I agree.

pierre-laurent said:

and i think if Taiwanese consider or find natural to call theirselves "Taiwanese", it's their right, it's simply the result of a particulary evolution of the taiwanese society. there is nothing extraordinary in all that.

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I agree again. However, we must also keep in mind that not ALL Taiwanese would agree on the same things. Heck, it's rare, if ever, that a whole nation of people agree unanimously on a specific issue. All we have to do is take a look at the chart above to see that not all Taiwanese agree on our identity We can also see that opinion has changed quite a bit in the amount of 10 years, since the DDP took over the government.

Pangu said:

I agree again. However, we must also keep in mind that not ALL Taiwanese would agree on the same things. Heck, it's rare, if ever, that a whole nation of people agree unanimously on a specific issue. All we have to do is take a look at the chart above to see that not all Taiwanese agree on our identity We can also see that opinion has changed quite a bit in the amount of 10 years, since the DDP took over the government.

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yes sure..there is no unanimity on this issue an all identities must be respected. but this chart had been made in 2000 and according recent polls(if my memory is good), half Taiwanese consider theirselves only as Taiwanese.( but that doesn't mean that these people vote all for DDP/TSU!).

ayhow i think to made advance an idea, a reform, or anything, the sociological bases for it must have already been ready. if it's not the case, then these ideas/reforms will remain impossible. we can surf on the wave but not against the wave. so the DDP only is at the same time the cause(of course)but also the effect of this social evolution or this "wave"(but the waves are changing..). plus, since longtime there is sort of conceptual confusion between "Taiwan" and "ROC", so think all that has not so much importance. and when the former premier Sun yun-hsun said at a political meeting:" i'd still like fight for Taiwan". believe me, it 's very moving even for a green taiwanese as me.

Agree with everything said so far.

Something slightly off-topic that I found the urge to mention after writing here is that the political extremes treat each other as enemies and I find that very backwards and counterproductive. For example, some green party politicians/loyalists like to call the pan-blues "traitors" or "slaves of the CCP" and vice versa.

I noticed that this is especially true for foreigners living in Taiwan who do not understand Taiwan's history from all perspectives. They forget that 98% (?) of Taiwan is ethnic Han and speak some dialect of Chinese, with a culture that foreign visitors do not know well. And yet they come in and call the pan-blues "communist dogs" and the pan-greens "selfish troublemakers" (the former being much more common in my readings).

I have strong reason to believe that both parties are working for Taiwan, not China. The difference lies in their beliefs in how to govern Taiwan, and this should not be a cause for disunity in Taiwanese people. Just because someone does or does not support independence doesn't mean they do or do not work for mainland China to sell Taiwan's soul. Whatever identity the Taiwanese people maintain or adopt, their government and its parties represent Taiwan and not external forces.

I think this problem comes from the confusion when we try to directly translate the word Chinese between the Chinese language and the English language。Well, I know the a lot of pan-greens would say they are not Chinese, because they feel they would be considered as PRC citizens if they say they are Chinese. But if you say Chinese, I don't take it as people from PRC, there are Chinese everywhere, in US, UK and so on.

gaoanyu said:

I think this problem comes from the confusion when we try to directly translate the word Chinese between the Chinese language and the English language。Well, I know the a lot of pan-greens would say they are not Chinese, because they feel they would be considered as PRC citizens if they say they are Chinese. But if you say Chinese, I don't take it as people from PRC, there are Chinese everywhere, in US, UK and so on.

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Unfortunately, most non-Chinese, especially those in the West, don't understand the complex situation between the two sides. To them, things are very simple, if you're from China, you are "Chinese", if you are from Taiwan, you are "Taiwanese", and don't even expect to know whether you are pan-blue or pan-green...

Pangu said:

Unfortunately, most non-Chinese, especially those in the West, don't understand the complex situation between the two sides. To them, things are very simple, if you're from China, you are "Chinese", if you are from Taiwan, you are "Taiwanese", and don't even expect to know whether you are pan-blue or pan-green...

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That's true, but we (people who are now happily discussing) are all Chinese华人, and we perfectly understand the complex situation. So what's the point of talking like "I am not Chinese but Taiwanese" amongest ourselves? We only need to make distinctions to the westerners.

Simple...

For Chinese, nation > country; (Also same to other confucainism country Japan and Korea)

For the rest of the world, nation = country;

For some Taiwanese, ideology > anything...

Chinese have so great history and culture, no one have the heart to abandon his identity as a Chinese; For almost the rest of the world, they even didn't know who exactly he is, who is his ancestor, so his country is his nation, like German, American, Franchman, in fact they're all many different nation joining together...
For Taiwanese, only thing comes to my mind is nationalism education (anti-Chinese communism), maybe now anti China for simple...