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Don't get hyper-libertarian on everything, I'm also libertarian on many aspects,
however government regulations should apply in many cases where public health concerns are on the line.
Same as they won't allow people to swim on the Kishon, or build on top of contaminated soil, they should also set a threshold regarding air pollution,
especially when the common population doesn't have the means to research/understand the pollution implication in a span of many years.

BTW - I specifically don't agree with this article for several reasons the reporter is ignoring -
- Electrification of IRL
- Electric vehicles
- Covering of Ayalon, even if it will take more than a decade
 

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Ayalon will be covered (if at all) only in certain parts. I think it will be covered partly from Arlozorov to the Itzhak Sadeh bridge. I'm not sure that particular part of Ayalon will be covered. Whoever bought/will buy apartments in those towers, especially apartments facing the highway, will suffer from air and noise polition for many many years and will have to keep their windows closed most of the time to block the noise. They'll pay a fortune for zero quality of life.
 

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Ayalon will be covered (if at all) only in certain parts. I think it will be covered partly from Arlozorov to the Itzhak Sadeh bridge. I'm not sure that particular part of Ayalon will be covered. Whoever bought/will buy apartments in those towers, especially apartments facing the highway, will suffer from air and noise polition for many many years and will have to keep their windows closed most of the time to block the noise. They'll pay a fortune for zero quality of life.
Indeed, the first steps are covering the northern parts, however the master-plan includes the covering of the section between
Ha`agana and Yitzhak Sade bridges as well, which includes this area.
I can understand if you`re skeptical regarding the timeline or if it will be ever built, but it's something to take into consideration
when you publish such an article.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
I would never live so close next to such a highway or even a busy street
where you cant open a window and have quiet
 

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Don't get hyper-libertarian on everything, I'm also libertarian on many aspects,
however government regulations should apply in many cases where public health concerns are on the line.
There is no need to be a hyper libertarian to see that it is a perfect example of nanny state.
Government regulations may apply when someone is doing something which could hurt the interests of the public.
It could include public health.
But there is nothing hurting public health, unless you consider a bunch of individuals who will buy those aparments on their own volition the "public".

Same as they won't allow people to swim on the Kishon, or build on top of contaminated soil, they should also set a threshold regarding air pollution,
This is apples to oranges comparison.
People might unknowingly do something stupid or dangerous (like go swimming in Kishon).
People could be malicious and ignore the fact that a certain lot's soil is contaminated and sell the apartments to the unknowing public.

How all of that is comparable to people making what is arguably one of the most important decisions in any individual's life (buying an apartment)?
Also unlike contaminated soil, the air pollution and noise from Ayalon are kinda hard to miss, don't you think?

especially when the common population doesn't have the means to research/understand the pollution implication in a span of many years.
Oh, I am fine if the government tells Gindi to put a giant sign on the building saying "WARNING, this location has air pollution and noise" which I guess would be useful for the visually impaired and those with diminished hearing.
But outright banning the sale?
I say, right after they ban, alcohol, smoking, fatty foods, sugary foods, force everyone to exercise daily, eat 3 times a day at predetermined intervals of time as prescribed by modern medicine and be nice to each other :)
Oh and how about banning construction and sales of apartments in less savoury parts of Tel Aviv where illegal aliens reside?
Surely, living there can be detiremental to one's health, just ask Esther Galili.
Don't you see how absurd this sounds?

BTW - I specifically don't agree with this article for several reasons the reporter is ignoring -
- Electrification of IRL
- Electric vehicles
- Covering of Ayalon, even if it will take more than a decade
You see what the problem is?
One government employee will think this and another that.
Won't it just be easier to leave it to the public?
If the buyers think like yourself (and it proves to be the case), not only will they get an apartment in Tel Aviv for a somewhat discounted price, they could even see the value of their property rising in a few years.
If thats not the case, well, as they say "win some, lose some".
 

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Discussion Starter #26
tel aviv muni could also say to gindi: offices until floor 20 and residential only floor 20+
tel aviv muni could also say to gindi: only hotel and not residential
but they really dont care as long as the sale is done
 

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Tel Aviv muni, are not obligated by the mentioned law, because the plan was approved before the law was legislated.
Tel Aviv muni won't insist on residential only from 20th floor and up.
Funny enough, forcing the company to do that, kinda goes against the government's own rhetoric about making housing more affordable.
You do realize that apartments on higher floors are going to be more expensive, right?
And speaking about government regulations, is this area even zoned for office development?
Tel Aviv muni wouldn't want to demand this to become hotel only development, because it would essentially put the project on hold forever.
Hotel only projects are not exactly popular among developers.
Just check Sarona hotel project and the number of years it was on hold.
Check out Sun hotel in Bat Yam.
So far, there is only one completed highrise hotel development in the recent years and it is in Azrieli towers.
There is kinda sorta hotel development in the "tower" I worked in on Rakevet/Begin street crossing (Nyx hotel I believe).
If you can call an 18 floor building a highrise and I am not even sure it takes up the whole building.
The jury is still out on Sarona hotel (hopefully it will get built in another 5 years or so).
And yeah, Tel Aviv muni wants the money, what else is new?
 

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Discussion Starter #28
The mayors main responsibility is for the budget of the city and mostly that all the city employees will get their large pensions.
For that he will sell anything to anyone and approve ridiculous density or allow residential if thats the biggest sale.
The towers of Sitonai market land parltly owned by TLV muni is a good example.
The towers were planned for 300 apts in each x 4 = 1,200 apts
In Gindi's version now its 385 x 4 = 1,540
so basically they allowed a 5th tower to maximize the land value..
 

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You should get with the program and understand that every known city planner thinks Tel Aviv should be much much much denser than it is now. They are saying it for 20 years, long before it was profitable for the city. The fact that city gets richer by the process is wonderful. Remember 1997 when the city was poor, smelly and deserted? Go seat in a random TLV apartment at night and tell me which reality was better for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
the first plan was for 300 apts x 4 + 600 in lower towers = 1,800
thats already very very dense. 36 units per dunam.

the number built is 385 x 4 = 1,540 + 700 in lower towers = 2,240
or 45 units per dunam.

over 7,000 people with green space size designed for 2,000 people, which
is also open public space.
crazy.

above 10 units per dunam = dense urban
up to 30 units per dunam = very dense, needs parks and services around.
up to 40 units per dunam = top density allowed, mainly urban renewal
aobe 40 units per dunam = creates a problematic and clastrophobic environment
most cities do not allow above 40.

we are talking 45!!
 

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You’re writing like people are living in the green area and without it there’s no life. But the neighborhoods of west rishon with their kilometers of parking places and green lawns are considered a failure and a death zone. People are looking for urbanism and life under their apartments. Not just simple grass zones. you should start judging density by 21 century criteria of life quality.
 

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phozon,I share your ideas in general, and i would like to add - Only skyscrapers can make the city be dense and not dense the same time.

How a paradox like this can be ?
When you build skyscrapers you make the least room with the most residents and amenities per area, so theortically with good developments, we can see a lot of people in nice vast building(not too vast) sharing in different levels the area.
Outside there are other places which can be other skyscrapers, or plazas or greeneries and further more.

So on one hand you make a lot of people live in community and in density, yet you can free the area in articulate and artful way and pour out a feeling of non-density, as people wish and as developers plan.
 

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You’re writing like people are living in the green area and without it there’s no life. But the neighborhoods of west rishon with their kilometers of parking places and green lawns are considered a failure and a death zone. People are looking for urbanism and life under their apartments. Not just simple grass zones. you should start judging density by 21 century criteria of life quality.
No one said anything about urban density which I'm all for, there is a difference between high density and high pollution levels,
you can have a perfectly dense urban area like in many western European cities (and some American) while keeping the pollution below hazard levels.

Having said that I will say again - I disagree with the article since it's not taking into account obvious future changes.
 

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Discussion Starter #35 (Edited)
You’re writing like people are living in the green area and without it there’s no life. But the neighborhoods of west rishon with their kilometers of parking places and green lawns are considered a failure and a death zone. People are looking for urbanism and life under their apartments. Not just simple grass zones. you should start judging density by 21 century criteria of life quality.
they are such a failure that they are some of the most expensive suburbs in the country.
West rishon is probably more expensive than most upmarket north american suburbs with average prices
of $0.8-1 million for new 1100-1500 sqf apartments. while two-family villas are $1.5-2m
really your response is out of touch, completely.
west rishon is connected to a college, 2 cinemaplexes in walking distance, govt courthouse cbd, and soon an entire new Elef cbd.
people are looking for quiet green suburbs with good schools and a country club. thats why rishon is so succesful.
most families dont want to live in towers, if they have an option.
 

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I am with avivster on that one.
Living in the middle of a big city is great, but not for everyone.
It is most attractive to young single people and to some extent to pensioners.
People with families in Israel, prefer places like West Rishon (or other similar but less expensive places).
 

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ofcourse it’s not for everyone I’m just explaining how the planing community sees the issue, what the future holds and why ranting about how the city cares only about money is infantile.

You can live where ever you wish. The open areas around rishon west are so healthy and clean compared to Tel Aviv 😄

 

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Discussion Starter #38
yes rishon has better air quality than people living 100m from Ayalon Highway
its a fact.
this project will have air like smoking 1-2 cigs a day.
should be called upper lungs.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Danya Cebus awarded the contract to build the project.
It will be 65,000 sqm + 29,000 sqm underground parking.
the total contract worth is 649 million shekel.
Gindi report selling 581 units in the towers.
The move-in scheduled in 2025.

דניה סיבוס תבנה פרויקט מגורים של גינדי החזקות בת"א תמורת 649 מיליון שקל
למרות ההאטה במשק, הבוקר דווח כי חברת גינדי החזקות בחרה
בחברת דניה סיבוס להקמת פרויקט UpperHouse ת"א
 

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yes rishon has better air quality than people living 100m from Ayalon Highway
its a fact.
this project will have air like smoking 1-2 cigs a day.
should be called upper lungs.
People who are concerned, can install HEPA filters into every room in the apartment. Powerful HEPA filtration will remove most particulates circulating in the air within an hour. Also, in 10 years (which is quite a small part of an apartment's lifespan), we might hope there will also be a higher density of people driving EVs on the highway. The congestion zone constrictions will also arrive after 2025 if I recall.
 
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