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How will you vote on June 23?

  • Leave

    Votes: 30 27.8%
  • Leave but unlikely to vote

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Stay

    Votes: 68 63.0%
  • Stay but unlikely to vote

    Votes: 6 5.6%
  • Undecided but will vote

    Votes: 3 2.8%
  • Undecided and unlikely to vote

    Votes: 1 0.9%

  • Total voters
    108
  • Poll closed .
41 - 60 of 14122 Posts

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I can not see how a single currency will work without further fiscal, economic and political union. It seems to be a path towards federalism. If we stay we can expect more and more legislation to prop up this agenda. I am all for a 'common market' but that goal seems to have long been supplanted with a 'United States of Europe' idealism. The bigger government gets the less democratic it becomes. I currently feel torn. I have been a long term advocate of the European Union but am now wavering.
 

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To Brexit or to Bremain for that is the question

I can not see how a single currency will work without further fiscal, economic and political union. It seems to be a path towards federalism. If we stay we can expect more and more legislation to prop up this agenda. I am all for a 'common market' but that goal seems to have long been supplanted with a 'United States of Europe' idealism. The bigger government gets the less democratic it becomes. I currently feel torn. I have been a long term advocate of the European Union but am now wavering.

Britain is not and in our lifetime will not be part of the Eurozone. Nor is it subject to the Schengen Agreement. If the United States of Europe was to ever happen, the UK would not be part of it. But it must be part of the EU. There are democratic issues with the EU, but so too are there democratic issues with the UK - a house of lords appointed in a similar fashion to the EC and with the power in some circumstances to override the house of commons, a non-elected head of state, a democratic system that allows a party to redraw constituencies to further their own causes. The EU isn't perfect but it can be improved - and is indeed being so. One thing is for certain, British Parliament has never stood up for workers rights quite as strongly as the EU does. In with bells on.
 

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EU reform is a fantasy. Bureaucracies never voluntarily shrink themselves, and treaty change would require a vast and diverse group of countries to agree to something while all pulling different directions. This is a flawed project that will only get worse.
 

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Ho hum
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2,777 Posts
Just had our first main project definitively go on hold pending outcome of the referendum. Part US backers will not invest apparently if the UK votes to leave.

Just an anecdote to be taken on its merits. I'm not going to extrapolate too much from it.
 

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:eek:hno:
Britain is not and in our lifetime will not be part of the Eurozone. Nor is it subject to the Schengen Agreement. If the United States of Europe was to ever happen, the UK would not be part of it. But it must be part of the EU. There are democratic issues with the EU, but so too are there democratic issues with the UK - a house of lords appointed in a similar fashion to the EC and with the power in some circumstances to override the house of commons, a non-elected head of state, a democratic system that allows a party to redraw constituencies to further their own causes. The EU isn't perfect but it can be improved - and is indeed being so. One thing is for certain, British Parliament has never stood up for workers rights quite as strongly as the EU does. In with bells on.
 

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Just had our first main project definitively go on hold pending outcome of the referendum. Part US backers will not invest apparently if the UK votes to leave.

Just an anecdote to be taken on its merits. I'm not going to extrapolate too much from it.
It's certainly not an isolated case. As I remarked in another thread:

Many decisions with respect to real estate investment in London (personal and corporate) are currently being deferred until the referendum, pending the result.
 

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I'll be voting to leave, although from polls it seems that the campaign of fearmongering and lies has convinced most people to remain. David Cameron and George Osborne are habitual shameless liars but unfortunately it seems that they manage to fool plenty of the public.

It is looking like another establishment stitch-up like the voting reform and Scottish independence referendums were.
 

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The fact we are even having this referendum has been a disaster for the UK.

The EU will never look at us the same way even if we remain, constantly questioning our loyalty to the EU.

We should be at the forefront of the EU project, as a nation that has conceivably gone through every stage of world power from small nation island to vast empire and back again we should be sharing our knowledge and experience of maintaining vast alliances and democracy, not believing we are capable of existing on the fringes of a growing union with nothing more than our past glories and fragmented commonwealth to sustain us. The whole notion is ridiculous as we approach the second quarter of the 21st century.

I'm almost thinking about not voting because the Yes vote doesn't even reflect my opinion; it's very much a Yes with making us an even closer alliance with the future of Europe and our existence in the ever-closer global stage.
 

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The EU doesn't make us more a part of the global stage, it insulates us from it. Our links to the outside world are largely governed by the negotiations of unelected foreigners on our behalf. Imagine how long ago we could have had a free-trade agreement with India or China had we been outside of this political straight-jacket.
 

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Ho hum
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The EU doesn't make us more a part of the global stage, it insulates us from it. Our links to the outside world are largely governed by the negotiations of unelected foreigners on our behalf. Imagine how long ago we could have had a free-trade agreement with India or China had we been outside of this political straight-jacket.
True. Our lot would've signed us up to the TTIP long ago.

The EU may put something of a strait-jacket on our elected politicians, but with our current lot that's often been an exceedingly good thing!
 

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Trainee Apprentice MOD
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The fact we are even having this referendum has been a disaster for the UK.

The EU will never look at us the same way even if we remain, constantly questioning our loyalty to the EU.

We should be at the forefront of the EU project, as a nation that has conceivably gone through every stage of world power from small nation island to vast empire and back again we should be sharing our knowledge and experience of maintaining vast alliances and democracy, not believing we are capable of existing on the fringes of a growing union with nothing more than our past glories and fragmented commonwealth to sustain us. The whole notion is ridiculous as we approach the second quarter of the 21st century.

I'm almost thinking about not voting because the Yes vote doesn't even reflect my opinion; it's very much a Yes with making us an even closer alliance with the future of Europe and our existence in the ever-closer global stage.
Someone who actually has a high awareness and speaks sense. Nice to see.
 

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The problem with a federal Europe is that you lose control of both your monetary and fiscal policy — both of which are fundamental to economy-management and lifting a country out of recession when it hits.

Currently Greece is suffering from a crippling recession and the EU is obliged to bail it out at the cost of billions per year. The irony is that the recession is so bad only because of Greece's adoption of the euro. If it had its own currency, it would never have been able to borrow the huge sums of money that it did (encouraged by French & German banks), and when the recession hit, it would have been able to devalue its currency to boost the economy, and use its own monetary policy toolkit to lift the country out of depression and reduce its debt pile.

The problem only gets worse the closer the union integrates. It's just not possible to manage 28 different economies with one central bank.
 

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My view is that the eurozone will be rolled back. Certainly Greece won't be able to stay.

The EU should focus on the Single Market — maximising competition and freedom of trade and movement between countries, and harmonising regulation and qualifications across countries.

There's no logical reason to go beyond that. Other key institutions like the ECHR are encompassed by the Council of Europe (not part of the EU). Defence policy is covered by NATO.

The European Parliament should be moved to Brussels so as to end pilgrimage to Strasbourg each month, that costs us €200m.

And European Commissioners should be elected democratically, so that the laws they create have genuine democratic legitimacy.
 

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The EU isn't perfect but it is democratic , we are better placed within the EU when we can influence policy and decision making than being outside and looking in.

Besides i don't trust this current government with issues regarding the environment and civil liberties , if we were to leave.
How is the EU democratic? Our MEPs have little to no power and no say in creating/proposing new legislation.

The European Commission and its 28 commissioners create new legislation none of which are elected by us or necessarily have our interests at heart (why would they?). The EU is many things but democratic it is not
 

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How is the EU democratic? Our MEPs have little to no power and no say in creating/proposing new legislation.

The European Commission and its 28 commissioners create new legislation none of which are elected by us or necessarily have our interests at heart (why would they?). The EU is many things but democratic it is not
We elect our representatives by PR rather than the winner takes all FTFP. Under this system UKIP has 25 MEPs rather than 1 MP.

The 28 Commissioners are chosen by the heads of government , one from each country. Our lack of influence is becuase we have sent people who are hostile to it rather than those who want to get involved.
 
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