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I have done a quick review of this alignment. The new alignment curve at Colne bridge just east of Huddersfield has a curve radius of 1.05km by my estimate, which will just about allow 160km/h. The curve at Ravensthorpe is excellently aligned with a curve radius of 1.60km, which will allow 200km/h.

The curve at colne bridge is precisely where I designed a new alignment about 10 years ago in google earth. I never thought of doing a wider curve and new alignment at Ravenshorpe though, I think that's really neat.

It also leaves the TPE nicely segregated so that reinstatement of the Mirfield - Bradford line via Cleckheaton would pose no significant headaches (assuming the single estate of new house can be bulldozed but thats another matter).
So at 200km/h, does that allow for any significant distance being run at that speed? Or will the line mostly be 160km running in practice?
 

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I think the governing linespeed will be 120-140km/h, with some stretches of 160km/h. There is probably no point exceeding 160km/h anywhere on an upgraded route.
I think that makes sense - assuming current plans / intentions are followed through the future if this line is almost exclusively to carry: 1 - local commuter services; 2 - semi-fast mid-distance transpennine services; and 3 - freight (long distance high speed journeys would be shifted to NPR in a number of years).
 

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I think that makes sense - assuming current plans / intentions are followed through the future if this line is almost exclusively to carry: 1 - local commuter services; 2 - semi-fast mid-distance transpennine services; and 3 - freight (long distance high speed journeys would be shifted to NPR in a number of years).
Aside from the prospect of the NPR line, what do people think those speeds could do for Manchester to Leeds journey times? I’m afraid I don’t know the distance of the line.
 

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Aside from the prospect of the NPR line, what do people think those speeds could do for Manchester to Leeds journey times? I’m afraid I don’t know the distance of the line.
The aim is to reduce journey time to 40 minutes, increasing the average station to station speed to a staggering 63mph! The upgrade will also significantly improve capacity to allow a decent frequency of both long distance and local stopping trains.
 

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The aim is to reduce journey time to 40 minutes, increasing the average station to station speed to a staggering 63mph! The upgrade will also significantly improve capacity to allow a decent frequency of both long distance and local stopping trains.
Well it is a step in the right direction I suppose. 40 mins is just about favourable compared to driving, once you factor in door-to-door journey time (especially if you are intending to be doing the journey and arrive before 9am on a week day, or leave during rush hour.

I suppose this is where NPR could earn it’s crust, but it needs to be in conjunction with improvements in local transport. E.g. outter GM to central Manchester could take 20-25 mins on the train or tram, but if TPE Manc-Leeds is to be at 40 mins for a couple decades while NPR sorts itself out, the frequency of Northern trains from local stations in to Leeds and Manchester needs to improve.
 

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Well it is a step in the right direction I suppose. 40 mins is just about favourable compared to driving, once you factor in door-to-door journey time (especially if you are intending to be doing the journey and arrive before 9am on a week day, or leave during rush hour.

I suppose this is where NPR could earn it’s crust, but it needs to be in conjunction with improvements in local transport. E.g. outter GM to central Manchester could take 20-25 mins on the train or tram, but if TPE Manc-Leeds is to be at 40 mins for a couple decades while NPR sorts itself out, the frequency of Northern trains from local stations in to Leeds and Manchester needs to improve.
It will certainly make a decent difference, particularly for local services which are severely constrained by the need to prioritise TPE. Just compare the Huddersfield line local services to Airedale/Wharfedale. And for TPE itself, having a service that doesn't seem to drag interminably will be a big improvement, along with the new trains.

But it's NPR that will make the big difference, perhaps not as much for Leeds-Manchester but more for longer journeys like Newcastle-Manchester or Leeds-Liverpool.
 

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But it's NPR that will make the big difference, perhaps not as much for Leeds-Manchester but more for longer journeys like Newcastle-Manchester or Leeds-Liverpool.
I think this is the key point -NPR will inevitably assist middle distance journeys like Leeds to Manchester but the longer distance journeys where the real transformational benefits can be realised (including if there are upgrades on the Leeds to Newcastle infrastructure)
 

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Well it is a step in the right direction I suppose. 40 mins is just about favourable compared to driving, once you factor in door-to-door journey time (especially if you are intending to be doing the journey and arrive before 9am on a week day, or leave during rush hour.

I suppose this is where NPR could earn it’s crust, but it needs to be in conjunction with improvements in local transport. E.g. outter GM to central Manchester could take 20-25 mins on the train or tram, but if TPE Manc-Leeds is to be at 40 mins for a couple decades while NPR sorts itself out, the frequency of Northern trains from local stations in to Leeds and Manchester needs to improve.
What toll transpennine motorway with dedicated link roads to city centres have you discovered LS?
 

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Sorry, but I’m not following what you’re getting at there. What are you referring to?
You're comparing higher speed rail travel to driving. We cannot even drive so fast between the city centres at peak times. Unless you have discovered some quiet tolled motorways and link roads to city centres.
 

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You're comparing higher speed rail travel to driving. We cannot even drive so fast between the city centres at peak times. Unless you have discovered some quiet tolled motorways and link roads to city centres.
Let’s say someone who lives in Greater Manchester needs to go to Leeds city centre for the day.

The train:
  • Home to train/tram station: 5 mins walk
  • Local train/tram to Manchester: 30 mins (including getting to the platform at Victoria)
  • Manchester Victoria to Leeds station: 40 mins
  • Leeds station to destination: 5 mins walk
  • Total time is 1 hour 20 mins.
The car:

Journeys are timed at 1 hour 10 mins, with a range between 1 hour and 1 hour 30 mins according to Google for most of ‘outer Manchester’ such as Altrincham or Cheadle Hulme. If you were driving from Old Trafford it is timed at 50 mins to 1 hour 25 mins (with possible delays)

That is why I say there is not much in it time wise. Unless you happen to live in the city centre or are starting at the city centre due to work reasons say (or live along the north trans pennine rail line), the car is unfortunately still going to be a strong contender.
 

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Discussion Starter #6,538
Remember you probably only get one chance to read that outside the paywall.

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Also at:

 

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Why does Sheffield lose out whatever plans are suggested?? Very frustrating. It’s a ‘massive’ city and bang in the middle of everything but not on the radar. Very frustrating.
Manchester is like a mythical impossible place to get to from this side of the Pennines, but hopefully the Mancs get their underground station!!
 
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