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This is a bit of an old article, and probably more to do the 'Liverpool City Region' than anything else, but has anyone heard of the plan below - the 'Silver City' plan? A plan to create a new city out of Widnes, Runcorn, and Warrington so that it could grow into an expanding Liverpool and Manchester to create one large new North-western super-city?

Is it to do with the new town developments in Warrington and Runcorn? Because if it isn't I can't find anything about it anywhere..

The Laz Word: Kilfoyle's world domination plan

... or do the people of Warrington and Chester really want to be ruled by a mayor in Liverpool?
Published on November 9th 2009.

IN the 1970s, a highly controversial report was produced detailing the creation of a new city sandwiched between Liverpool and Manchester. It was given the code name Silver City.

The authors of that report most certainly didn’t strike gold. Their doomed theory was the land between the two great North West rivals would eventually become one big urban sprawl as Liverpool spread its wings east and Manchester towards the west, What was needed was something in the middle – a wooleyback city based on Widnes, Runcorn and Warrington.

There was some logic to the idea. Thousands of Liverpudlians had gone to live in exile in the Warrington suburbs of Penketh and Sankey, thousands more were lured to Runcorn New Town and to the Upton Overspill estates in Widnes. Meanwhile Mancunians were heading west in their covered wagons for the prairie lands around Birchwood in Warrington.

There are still wide open spaces between Liverpool and Manchester, a greenbelt where tractors and combined harvesters have yet to be driven out by 4 X4 people carriers and new-build estates of semis.
Read more at - Manchester Confidential
 

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the area around runcorn was built by Liverpool Housing Trust and people from Liverpool City District were forced to move creating a ghetto - blood runs far thicker than a woolybacks wallet on a night out ha ha
 

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the area around runcorn was built by Liverpool Housing Trust and people from Liverpool City District were forced to move creating a ghetto - blood runs far thicker than a woolybacks wallet on a night out ha ha
Not strictly true. Yes, the some residents in the later-built parts of Runcorn New Town were forced to move, but the estates of Halton Lodge, Halton Brook and The Brow were highly sought after.

You couldn't move there unless you had a job in Runcorn. My grandad on my mum's side (my dad's family had lived in Runcorn for centuries) would ride from Tuebrook every day just so he could qualify for one of those houses.

He wasn't the only one either. Hundreds if not thousands of families did the same.
 

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to be fair though Liverpool within the City boundaries should have been rebuilt, but the cynic tells me a Irish Socialist rebel city might have been deliberately 'thinned out' ?

Thoughts ?
I don't doubt that part of what you believe may be true, but why inadvertently help the racism be excused by bringing "rebel" and "socialist" into it?

By all means I expect those that harbour bigoted views would be all too happy for people to consider Liverpool "rebellious", to provide cover for anti-Liverpool actions, however in this country's darkest times the people of Liverpool showed themselves time and again willing to pitch in along with everyone else, to great cost. And in the country's brightest times, Liverpool has often been at the forefront setting World firsts and earning money. One minor spat in the 80's seems to have created a revisionist story of a "socialist" city that needs to be brought to heel, while true history shows Liverpool has never been especially socialist, there has never been any cause for concern on any grounds and instead the city has at times brought a great deal of benefit to the UK.

Call out bigots for what they are; anti-Liverpool bigotry isn't the fault of people in Liverpool ("rebellious" or not), it's just the doing of the bigots that practise it.
 

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Characterisation of Liverpool as any of 'Irish', 'rebel' or 'socialist' is not without difficulty considering the city's history. It may be thought of as all of those things at times by outsiders however. One would hope that those who know the city would be aware of its complexities beyond such fairly ignorant stereotyping of what makes it stand out as a place.
 

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And in any case the Irish? Socialist?

Post independence the Republic has been one of the most conservative countries in western Europe with two centre right parties vying for control in each election. And everywhere else the Irish emigrated to and eventually got control of the political machinery didn't end up socialist. Consider the once Irish dominated politics of the great cities of the US eastern seaboard with the decades of Socialist Party (yes it exists) control of German settled Milwaukee. The is a socialist element to Irish repubicanism (Big Jim Larkin, 'The Starry Plough' and all that) but it's a minority strand in Irish political history and in fact socialism has shallower roots in Ireland than in England and certainly Germany, hence the Milwaukee Socialists and so on.
 

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to be fair though Liverpool within the City boundaries should have been rebuilt, but the cynic tells me a Irish Socialist rebel city might have been deliberately 'thinned out' ?

Thoughts ?
Firstly, Liverpool is not a predominately Irish city, far from it. It is actually in England, a map indicates that. The city was ruled for 12 years by the LibDEms.

If you mean the powers in Whitehall viewed it that way, and deliberately ran the city down, then you may be right. The city was laid out for a population of 2.5 million. The infrastructure is mainly intact to rapidly expand.
 

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Firstly, Liverpool is not a predominately Irish city, far from it. It is actually in England, a map indicates that. The city was ruled for 12 years by the LibDEms.

If you mean the powers in Whitehall viewed it that way, and deliberately ran the city down, then you may be right. The city was laid out for a population of 2.5 million. The infrastructure is mainly intact to rapidly expand.
The city may be geographically in England, however it is a bone of contention with a split of opinion as to whether it is an "English" city (giving a nod to one single forumer there who has previously argued vociferously in the past that it is England). I would argue it isn't. Its Irish/Welsh ancestry, in particular the millions who came from Ireland, with a good mix of American, Italian and other exposure has seen to that whatever Liverpool is, it is somewhat different compared to the rest of provincial England. At one point not too long ago, it was an Irish city. Today I'd say it's its own melted-in creation, a bit like America isn't Britain any more.

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging difference exists; it just shouldn't matter in the way that people are treated. It's simply an interesting aspect of history and culture, and has impact on things like local politics.
 

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John has his own Dingle Orangeman issues going on. Ironically these (long dying, I think you really have to be in your 70s or 80s and be from the Dingle or Netherfield Road to have them) attitudes are one of the most *Irish* things about Liverpool. Orangeism is an Irish phenomenon and outside of Ireland only persists in places where the Irish (protestant Irish in this case) settled in large numbers. But as I said this rather unpleasant symptom of Liverpool's Irish heritage has been on the way out for a very long time.
 

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The city may be geographically in England, however it is a bone of contention with a split of opinion as to whether it is an "English" city (giving a nod to one single forumer there who has previously argued vociferously in the past that it is England). I would argue it isn't. Its Irish/Welsh ancestry, in particular the millions who came from Ireland, with a good mix of American, Italian and other exposure has seen to that whatever Liverpool is, it is somewhat different compared to the rest of provincial England. At one point not too long ago, it was an Irish city. Today I'd say it's its own melted-in creation, a bit like America isn't Britain any more.
I'd be interested to know what you think defines a city as 'English'? Is Bradford an English city by your definition? Or Leicester? Or London?

My understanding is that Englishnness is a fairly flexible construct that is more about values than where people originate from.
 

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That's right, racism, ignorance, self-loathing snobbery, anti-intellectualism, crawling servility, pompous sanctimoniousness and utter repression mixed with depraved sexual practices on the QT. Buggery of young boys especially.
 

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The bulk of the people's descendants of the city do actually come from England. The Irish content is vastly overrated. The myth in the rest of the country is that Liverpool is an Irish city on the English mainland. The city was never an Irish city. The most that Irish were in the city was 20% at the height of the famine. The population greatly increased after the famine, with immigration from all over Europe. The millions who came over from Ireland did not settle in the city, or town as it was then. It could not accommodate them and most dispersed to Manchester, London, etc, and even the USA from Waterloo Dock.

The Welsh have a far greater influence on the city than the Irish. They built large parts of it and their accent is largely in the Liverpool accent. One third of the churches of the large Toxteth district were Welsh. The Scandinavian and German connections are vastly underrated. Where does LabSkause come from?

Any Irish religious traditions only exist in the working class areas and always did. Areas like Scotland Road where the poorer Irish congregated who did labouring work on the north docks.
 

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John has his own Dingle Orangeman issues going on. Ironically these (long dying, I think you really have to be in your 70s or 80s and be from the Dingle or Netherfield Road to have them) attitudes are one of the most *Irish* things about Liverpool. Orangeism is an Irish phenomenon and outside of Ireland only persists in places where the Irish (protestant Irish in this case) settled in large numbers. But as I said this rather unpleasant symptom of Liverpool's Irish heritage has been on the way out for a very long time.
Yes the sooner the Orangeism goes the better, and you are quite right that it is ironically the largest single annual evidence of Liverpool's strong Irish heritage, along with the various attitudes surrounding it on both side.

Liverpool's Irish heritage should be celebrated (and commemorated out of respect as to the reasons why it happened that way) as part of history, not denied or derided. Simply pretending Liverpool is English through and through is as bad as being on the side of those that discriminate for reason that it isn't, because it means that prejudice can't be properly confronted. Certainly the Irish and Welsh influence, the melting in of these significant populations, has resulted in a city that is significantly "Celtic".
 

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Liverpool's Irish heritage should be celebrated (and commemorated out of respect as to the reasons why it happened that way) as part of history, not denied or derided. Simply pretending Liverpool is English
The Irish connection should not be forgotten, neither should the Welsh, Scandinavian, etc. But to promote the city as being predominately Irish is totally wrong because it is not. And to pretend the city is not English and has few English roots again is totally wrong. The English make up the bulk of the descendants as the people from the surrounding countryside moved in to the towns as the industrial revolution started up. As the seaport expanded so did the people from elsewhere.

The city's role in the Irish famine is one of shame as they tried to get them out and did nothing to accommodate these staving people. The Irish swamped the services of the city. Their children were running wild around the docks. A mass grave in Anfield cemetery of around 6,000 Irish has people in it who died in the city. Maybe it is better not to emphasise that period in the city's history.
 

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The Irish connection should not be forgotten, neither should the Welsh, Scandinavian, etc. But to promote the city as being predominately Irish is totally wrong because...
And who is doing that? Ireland undoubtedly has had a massive influence on the city, however I am simply talking about acknowledging (not promoting) the city as being predominately Liverpudlian, as a result of its Celtic-Anglo-Other mixed history, versus "English" - and saying it shouldn't matter - instead of running and hiding from the fact and pretending no such difference exists.

If you visit Liverpool's museums you'll find all historical contributions to that modern day identity celebrated and commemorated, including the dark aspects which have never been shied away from. I won't respond to your comments proposing to gloss over the first period of mass Irish immigration, except to point out that when I talk about the importance of commemorating the reasons why it happened, I am specifically thinking in particular about the long history of politics as to why the crop failures were allowed to so badly affect the population in the first place. It was a given of mine on a Liverpool forum that Liverpool forumers would get what I meant there.

I would suggest mine is a rather Irish viewpoint and an awareness of facts that you won't find abundant outside of Liverpool or small pockets of London.
 

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And who is doing that? Ireland undoubtedly has had a massive influence on the city,
I disagree. An influence yes, but "massive" is far too strong a word. As the dock complex grew rapidly the town grew rapidly into a city, with people from all over after the Irish famine, the influence of the Irish greatly receded. Liverpool took on a life of its own and generated its culture from the many influences.
I am specifically thinking in particular about the long history of politics as to why the crop failures were allowed to so badly affect the population in the first place.
We all know the famine was because of land ownership and the appropriation of the fruits of the land into the pockets of a few people. But that is beyond the control of Liverpool, who had to take the brunt of the starving migration through its port overwhelming the services and accommodation of the town.
 

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Repeating myself, the existence of a dwindling band of confused Dingle Orangemen like John, desperate to downplay the blatantly huge influence that the Irish had on the make up of Liverpool, is one of the most Irish things about Liverpool's heritage. Orangeism only exists in the Irish settled places in Great Britain because Orangeism is an Irish phenomenon. A loathsome and thankfully dying phenomenon but part of Liverpool's Irish heritage and nothing to do with England. Go to the really English parts of England, Herefordshire, North Yorkshire, Surrey, guess what? There's no Orangemen there because these places did not receive large number of protestant Irish immigrants bringing atavistic sectarian hatreds along with them.
 

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To say that Liverpool is inundated with Orangemen is really pushing it too far. How many of these people are there in the city supporting this loathsome organisation? What is their percentage of the population? 1%? If so I would be surprised. Playing a loud band in the street may give the impression their numbers are greater than what they are.
 
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