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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I hope similar threads have not been already opened, but for a foreigner who doesn't live in TO it's difficult to understand what's happening in the city transit system.

I know that Transit City has been on hold, but now seems that some of its ideas will be used again in different ways.

The only line under construction seems to be the Eglinton Crosstown LRT and will takes 9 years( isn't a lot?) to be completed.

I'd like to know what lines will be realistically build in the following 10-20 years and I'd like to see a map of the future network.

judging from the outside, I'd like to see, in addition to EC LRT, a new subway line half moon shaped with the lowest point in downtown connecting with the yellow line and maybe the airport on the west.

I'd like to see also an extended streetcar system in the city core(downtown, lakeside, bloor street etc..) with more binaries on their own roads.

Toronto is probably going to grow(hopefully) and become more densier(something I'd like to see) and it will need a great public transport system to become one of the top 5 american cities.
 

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insertoronto
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there are currently 5 transit lines fully funded. the Spadina (eastern part of the yellow line) extension, which will open sometime early 2016, and the Eglinton Crosstown which will open in 2019 (according to latest claims, but I expect it to actually open around 2020 to 2021) the reason it will take so long is 2 fold. one is the fact that the funding will trickle in at a certian rate, meaning only so much can get done. the early construction that is currently happening is purposely moving extremely slowly so that they can build up funds and perform the most disruptive part of construction as quickly as possible. (in around 6-7 years). the second reason is that the line is HUGE. 1km elevated, 10km underground, and 8km in the middle of the street. (19km total). other funded projects all to be complete by 2022 include two 14km EC LRT (as you call it, what does the EC stand for?) lines in the suburbs on Sheppard and Finch Avenues, and the conversion of a single, outdated ICTS technology line to grade seperated LRT, with a 3km extension to it. (it is the current blue line on our maps) there is a bit of controversy with that as the line will have to shut down for 4 years to be converted.

here is a map of what is currently funded. the thicker lines mean grade seperated, while the thin lines mean the LRT lines will be running in the middle of the road.





the half moon line you talk about is known as the DRL (downtown relief line, as it will take riders off of the extremely overcrowded yonge line, the eastern part of the yellow line) most likely going to begin the environmental assessment for it in the spring. (though that does not mean it will be funded, just means that the municipal government will get the basic design done, and then look to higher levels of government for funding) the part that will be done will likely be a shadow of the full half moon though. a map for it:




the connection to the airport will likely end up being by an extension of the eglinton line using middle of the street LRT technology. though there is currently a premium connection to the airport with only 2 stops between downtown and the airport under construction to be completed by 2015. the difference is that it will be managed under GO, Toronto's commuter rail service, rather than the TTC, the regular transit service.

Here is a map of what Toronto's transit map will likely look like around 2026 or 2027 in my opinion. (possibly earlier, possibly later)

 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks so much for the reply.

Some questions:

- the eglinton crosstown will run in the middle of the road for 8km like a streetcar? I thought it was a light railway like london dlr partially underground, partially overground.

-if the yonge line is overcrowded then what's the point of the brown line? It only seems to take more passenger to the yellow one. If it was an extension of the other transversal line would have more sense.

I hope the government will fimd the funds the city needs for a great transportation service.

Also what do you think abou path, is it useful? Maybe they could have built another metro line in the sixties instead of 27 km of underground tunnels?just asking...
 

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insertoronto
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the eglinton line will run in the middle of the road with its own ROW. (private lanes for the trains only) it will also have signal priority at intersections, meaning that cars will have no effect on travel times.

the yellow line is actually 2 different lines that are treated as one. the part on the left that the brown line (Finch line) runs into is called the Spadina line, and is actually nowhere near full. The part on the right is the Yonge line, and that is the one that is extremely overloaded.


The PATH is cool, but it is EXTREMELY confusing once you are in it and try to get around it.



and what do you mean by another metro line in the 60's?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Innsertnamehere said:
the eglinton line will run in the middle of the road with its own ROW. (private lanes for the trains only) it will also have signal priority at intersections, meaning that cars will have no effect on travel times.

the yellow line is actually 2 different lines that are treated as one. the part on the left that the brown line (Finch line) runs into is called the Spadina line, and is actually nowhere near full. The part on the right is the Yonge line, and that is the one that is extremely overloaded.

The PATH is cool, but it is EXTREMELY confusing once you are in it and try to get around it.

and what do you mean by another metro line in the 60's?
Are you sure it will be as fast as it was underground? I have no knowledge on that but the tram we have here in europe are slower even if they are on their own road. I don't know if it will be similar to a tram, where can i get infos?

I mean that most of the undergroumd work has been done in 50-60-70, so maybe they could have invested moneyon another lineof metro.
I have never lived in a city with such cold winters and i don't know how path will be useful. The idea seems good, but i like dowtown areas full of shop, entertainment venues and people.

Canary wharf has a similar but smalle thing. I like the area a lot but most of the roads looks quite empty during the work hours. Anyway canary wharf is not a big area and is not downtown london.

@marcansdian thanks. Will the brown line become a continuous service with sheppard lrt?


Thanks for your posts.
 

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insertoronto
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I shouldn't say that it will travel just as fast. the subway currently averages around 32km/h, when including stops, while the new LRTs will average around 25km/h, partly because of the much closer stop spacing. ( 400-700m compared to the 600-2000m spacing of the subways)

and yes, most of the money was invested in the 60's and 70's. so much so infact, that there has been just 6.5km added since 1985. (1980 if you don't want to count the blue line, as it isn't a real subway, but rather ICTS) thats 27 years! (32 years without the RT!) It will be 31 years (since 1985) before the next extension opens, which will be 8.6km long. (36 without counting the RT) It's hard to imagine that the single extension being built right now will be longer than all the expansion we have seen in the last 30 years. heck, when the Spadina extension opens it will have been 14 years since we received ANY form of expansion. Insane. All I can say is that better years are ahead for Toronto's transit network!
 

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Are you sure it will be as fast as it was underground? I have no knowledge on that but the tram we have here in europe are slower even if they are on their own road. I don't know if it will be similar to a tram, where can i get infos?

I mean that most of the undergroumd work has been done in 50-60-70, so maybe they could have invested moneyon another lineof metro.
I have never lived in a city with such cold winters and i don't know how path will be useful. The idea seems good, but i like dowtown areas full of shop, entertainment venues and people.

@marcansdian thanks. Will the brown line become a continuous service with sheppard lrt?


Thanks for your posts.
PATH's value is actually sort of undervalued, especially for the maintenance and cost of it. If the PATH system wasn't in place today, there would be no way Toronto's sidewalks in the CBD would be able to accommodate the pedestrians it takes in. In terms of origins, PATH was one of the lucky draws Toronto received from the private businesses in Toronto as much of the tunnels were built and maintained by these private businesses.

The entire idea came around during the 1960s when Toronto faced a huge sidewalk congestion issue (although the tunnels between Eaton's Centre and city hall date back to 1900). Their solution was underground tunnels, and as many of the buildings in the downtown area already had subterranean levels, it was just a matter of connecting them. This is why out of the entire PATH network, the city itself only maintains and owns the small areas which connect each building. So really if a private business wanted to opt in (and why wouldn't they, more clientele in the building), they would just build their basement area to the PATH's specifications and abide by their guidelines, and the city would build a tunnel to connect it to the nearest building already in PATH. This is why looking at a map of PATH, it looks really random, as PATH never had a master plan in all its years of existence until the 2000s.

As for that brown line (I assume Eglinton is what you meant), there were plans to have it run as one unified line with the Scarborough LRT, but this was scrapped when the idea of having the entire Eglinton line underground was scrapped as well. So as of this moment, no they will not be running continuously.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for your reply.

I meant the current sheppard subway and sheppard east, will they be continuous? Because one is a subway, the other a light rail service.

Also i think could be interesting to have the sheppard line connected to the finch west lrt, won't it?
 

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Eglinton will not be near as fast as a subway nor as reliable.

At most it will be able to travel every 3 minutes, half the level of grade separated technologies. A transit line is only as reliable as it's weakest point and Toronto has 8 km of it. When running trains every 3 minutes as the TTC wants in rush hour then signal priority is impossible. That means you have a train arriving in to a stop {which is every 400 meters in Toronto} every 90 seconds. The signal "priority" will have to allow for left hand turns, regular traffic flow and also the left hand turn signals and regular traffic flow of the cross streets. All this because Toronto completely refuses to even consider elevating any of it's line. In Toronto it's either underground or at grade. This is made worse by the fact that the section it could be elevated thru is an ugly commercial/industrial area.

The Sheppard and Finch LRT will have similar signal "priority" and will stop every 300 meters yet the TTC still has the gaul to call it rapid transit. It will certainly be improved transit but it won't reduce travel times at all.

The reality is that Toronto can afford to make the entire Eglinton line totally grade separated and save a fortune in operational costs by having it automated but Toronto flat out refuses to pay for one dime of the line. The government of Ontario is paying 100% of the cost and is demanding more money but refuses to help pay for it's own infrastructure yet gets mad when Ottawa won't contribute any money either. Toronto is the only city on the planet that refuses to pay anything for it's mass/rapid transit expansion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
ssiguy2 said:
Eglinton will not be near as fast as a subway nor as reliable.

At most it will be able to travel every 3 minutes, half the level of grade separated technologies. A transit line is only as reliable as it's weakest point and Toronto has 8 km of it. When running trains every 3 minutes as the TTC wants in rush hour then signal priority is impossible. That means you have a train arriving in to a stop {which is every 400 meters in Toronto} every 90 seconds. The signal "priority" will have to allow for left hand turns, regular traffic flow and also the left hand turn signals and regular traffic flow of the cross streets. All this because Toronto completely refuses to even consider elevating any of it's line. In Toronto it's either underground or at grade. This is made worse by the fact that the section it could be elevated thru is an ugly commercial/industrial area.

The Sheppard and Finch LRT will have similar signal "priority" and will stop every 300 meters yet the TTC still has the gaul to call it rapid transit. It will certainly be improved transit but it won't reduce travel times at all.

The reality is that Toronto can afford to make the entire Eglinton line totally grade separated and save a fortune in operational costs by having it automated but Toronto flat out refuses to pay for one dime of the line. The government of Ontario is paying 100% of the cost and is demanding more money but refuses to help pay for it's own infrastructure yet gets mad when Ottawa won't contribute any money either. Toronto is the only city on the planet that refuses to pay anything for it's mass/rapid transit expansion.
Thats awful! What's the poimt of having a stop every 400m? Theminimum should be 500m for a rapid transit service! I hope that with an higher density people will be obliged to change their minds.

Toronto is rapidly growing and it's high density core is expanding fast, are they building new suburbs or not? Is the sprawl stopped orlimited? Is that also happening for the "little cousin" city of missisauga?
 

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insertoronto
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they will have signal priority, and though some stations will be 400m apart, not every one will be. (most won't) it will have a 60% total travel time reduction compared to current bus service.


and toronto does have a greenbelt, so it has limited suburban growth.
 

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It really depends on how many stations actually get put in place. The Eastern Section from Laird to Kennedy is about 8km and has 13 stops including the end points (615m average spacing), and may have an underground section at Don Mills, which would likely result in the elimination of the Ferrand stop and it is also suggested Lebovic will be eliminated which would put 11 stops in 8km or an average of every 727m
 

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Thats awful! What's the poimt of having a stop every 400m? Theminimum should be 500m for a rapid transit service! I hope that with an higher density people will be obliged to change their minds.

Toronto is rapidly growing and it's high density core is expanding fast, are they building new suburbs or not? Is the sprawl stopped orlimited? Is that also happening for the "little cousin" city of missisauga?
Don't listen to ssiguy2, he doesn't even live in Toronto. He has a bad habit of criticizing Toronto's system and twisting the facts to suit his rants. What he posted is a bunch of nonsense. The stops on the LRT lines will be farside stops, so signal priority isn't an issue. The LRV's will get through the intersections.

The stop spacing for the Sheppard East and Finch West LRT will be roughly 500m apart, as this was determined by the TTC to best serve the corridors. Keep in mind, these lines will be replacing bus lines with a current spacing of 250m. The spacing is being doubled. So the LRT lines are rapid transit.

The Eglinton LRT will be in tunnel through the central section as the road is narrow, and the density is high. The LRT is on the surface in the middle of a wide suburban road with lots of open space, and low density. Why would you waste money building underground, when there is space aboveground? Another issue ssiguy2 conveniently left out, Eglinton Ave enters a deep valley east of Laird Drive. The cost to tunnel in the valley would be astronomical with marginal improvement in travel time. Waste of money.

So just to remind you: If you're going to listen to ssiguy2, do some research. It's a good chance he's lying to you.
 

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I never thought Eglinton shouldn't be underground thru the original City of Toronto boundaries. The thing that is ridiculous is Toronto will not even consider elevating the eastern section of the line from roughly DM to Kennedy.

By elevating the line the capacity could double using the same size trains as no grade system can run every 90 seconds each way unlike all grade separated systems. Elevation would also result in more reliable and faster service. It would also save the TTC a small fortune in operational costs as the line could then be automated.

As far as signal priority is concerned I am absolutely right. When you have trains coming into an intersection every 90 seconds signal priority is impossible. Arriving in every 90 seconds does not allow enough time for left hand turns nor cross traffic to flow to say nothing of the fact that people actually have to walk across the intersection.
 

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It is best to consider these lines to be improved local service and as feeder routes to the actual rapid transit routes like the subway, and when the Commuter Rail service is electrified and integrated into the proper subway network.

That would be the real backbone of the rapid transit network and not this piecemeal half ass approach, and banged up approach in the case of Sheppard.
 

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insertoronto
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I never thought Eglinton shouldn't be underground thru the original City of Toronto boundaries. The thing that is ridiculous is Toronto will not even consider elevating the eastern section of the line from roughly DM to Kennedy.

By elevating the line the capacity could double using the same size trains as no grade system can run every 90 seconds each way unlike all grade separated systems. Elevation would also result in more reliable and faster service. It would also save the TTC a small fortune in operational costs as the line could then be automated.

As far as signal priority is concerned I am absolutely right. When you have trains coming into an intersection every 90 seconds signal priority is impossible. Arriving in every 90 seconds does not allow enough time for left hand turns nor cross traffic to flow to say nothing of the fact that people actually have to walk across the intersection.

you do realize that the even the overloaded yonge line isn't running at 90 second frequencies? it runs at 2 minute frequencies currently. in order to make is be capable of running at 90 second intervals, the line would need ATO (automatic train operation) signal upgrades. 3 minute frequencies will fit the needs of this line for at least the first 30 years of operation, and probably much much further than that.
 

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I agree, 3 minute frequency will be fine for Eglinton. The issue is that they could build smaller stations by running them automated.

Vancouver's Canada Line stations are far too small but the Canada Line 50 meter stations will have a higher capacity than Eglinton's 100 meter stations. What's more is that Canada Line will be much cheaper to run due to automation.
 
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