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http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/business-news/london_tube_blackmail_angers_northern_high_speed_rail_lobby_1_3521905

London Tube ‘blackmail’ angers Northern high-speed rail lobby
Wednesday 29 June 2011 06:00

LONDON transport bosses have been accused of “blackmail” after saying that a new underground line will have to be built if the North gets high-speed rail.

Transport for London deputy chairman Daniel Moylan told MPs that the new line would be needed to run through Euston station in London if the high-speed line comes to Yorkshire and the North West.

But the comments – which came as Yorkshire transport bosses warned that investment in other rail infrastructure should not be neglected because of high-speed rail – have sparked anger from civic leaders in the North after the billions of pounds poured into southern transport projects such as Crossrail, Thameslink and the Jubilee Lines in recent years.

Sir Richard Leese, leader of Manchester City Council, said London has had a “generous transport settlement”, adding: ”Now there is a transport investment that helps the whole country including London, it’s quite unreasonable for him to try and use it to seek new funding for a new London-only Tube line.

“Doesn’t he realise how this sort of special pleading looks to the rest of the country?

“All of us deserve transport improvements that will help boost the national economy.

“City leaders in England, Scotland and Wales have united behind HS2 even though some won’t benefit for decades and that means and we should not be undermined by this parochial attempt at civic blackmail.”

Mr Moylan’s comments came during a select committee inquiry into the £32bn high-speed rail scheme, which will see an initial 225mph line from London to Birmingham before branching north to Leeds and Manchester by 2032. The project is calculated to be worth billions to the Yorkshire economy.

But the project is exposing tensions between North and South, with a provocative advertising campaign by the Yes to High Speed Rail campaign – which was holding an event to gather support in Leeds yesterday – featuring the slogan “Their Lawns or Our Jobs?”, a reference to opposition from those living near the planned route in the Chilterns.

Yesterday MPs warned campaigners to tone down the rhetoric amid fears it will alienate potential supporters.

“I would caution you not to polarise the debate in this way,” said Tory MP Iain Stewart. “There are people and campaign groups who back high-speed rail but not this particular scheme.”

Professor David Begg, former chairman of the Northern Way group of regional development agencies and now heading the Yes to High-Speed Rail campaign, defended the campaign, saying that some people opposing the project are in a “very, very privileged position economically” while some benefiting from it are not.

He also warned that the project was not yet a “done deal”, citing opposition from major Tory party donors as being a threat to the scheme. It has previously been reported that David Allen, who gives about £50,000 a year to the party and whose estate in Northamptonshire is on the route, is threatening to withdraw support for the Tories as is Lewis Garfield, an industrialist in Northamptonshire.

Prof Begg said: “History tells us political decision making can be quite fickle. It’s especially challenging for a Conservative Government, a coalition Government, who have a number of big donors to the Conservative party threatening to withdraw funding.

“This is particularly challenging for Conservative members and Ministers who are pushing the scheme. I don’t think it’s a done deal by any means. It’s especially challenging in a difficult economic climate like this.”
 

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Imperative that this gets off the ground its embarrassing to think how far behind our rail infrastructure is in comparison to Europe.
 

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We must remember that Londoners, and those in the South-east, are completely up their own arses and are blissfully unaware of the North of England. Many of them, however, seem to have heard of Scotland - probably because the Queen goes there for a holiday from time to time.

I shouldn't worry about it too much, though, because this country has had it!
 

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I really think they should link HS2 to LBIA and through to Bradford. It is planned to have spurs to Brum and Manc airports. LBIA is currently much smaller than these but due to the catchment area has potential to be as big. A rail link would be a great stimulus for the airport owners to invest in the facilities and runway.

A link would also have major economic benefits to Bradford (and boy they need it)through the obvious air related spin-offs but also better train connections to NW Leeds, Harrogate and York within LCR but also to places outside our region.

It would also help towards LCR becoming a global destination.
 

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I really think they should link HS2 to LBIA and through to Bradford. It is planned to have spurs to Brum and Manc airports. LBIA is currently much smaller than these but due to the catchment area has potential to be as big. A rail link would be a great stimulus for the airport owners to invest in the facilities and runway.

A link would also have major economic benefits to Bradford (and boy they need it)through the obvious air related spin-offs but also better train connections to NW Leeds, Harrogate and York within LCR but also to places outside our region.

It would also help towards LCR becoming a global destination.
Indeed. If for the business and manufacturing investment if nothing else. Keep in mind Germany's growth rate this quarter (5% I believe?). Off-the-scale for most countries, but sustainable because of it's specialised manufacturing capablities (amongst other things) which, in turn can only be sustained by the incredible infrastructure - rail, autobahn and communications (great broadband etc).

If Leeds, or the UK as a whole is to succeed economically long-term, we have to give SERIOUS consideration to our high-tech manufacturing sector...

HS2 can help this of course, but key improvements need to be made in air travel and the local access to air travel itself, like you say.

I worry that HS2 may slightly help enlarge the North/South divide when it comes to services, as regional headquarters become less important...but maybe the benefits outweigh the negatives?
 

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Imperative that this gets off the ground its embarrassing to think how far behind our rail infrastructure is in comparison to Europe.
Only Germany, Spain, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium and Holland, I believe, have high speed rail. If you want to see horrible, slow rail go to Scandinavia or Ireland.. or better yet the US or Canada.. :p

It was to my understanding that Phillip Hammond already said that HS2 would go to Manchester and Leeds last year.. what on earth has occured since then? This is all so confusing.. or maybe I'm not paying attention enough!
 

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Only Germany, Spain, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium and Holland, I believe, have high speed rail. If you want to see horrible, slow rail go to Scandinavia or Ireland.. or better yet the US or Canada.. :p
Germany, Spain, France, Italy, Spain all have a larger land area than the UK, so you'd expect them to benefit from HSR, but Belgium and Holland?

If they feel the need for a HSR system, surely we should have one!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Not quite what it seems. To grasp HSR properly you need to think of Europe as one place, not separate nations. The Netherlands and Belgium have HSR for international connections- London - Brussels for example. It's one European High Speed Rail Network that we're working towards, not separate national networks.
 

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The issue I have with this is all lines link to London. We should have high seed connections between the core cities like they do in France, Spain and Germany.

If Leeds, Manchester Newcastle and Liverpool were linked by a high speed line covering the route in say just over an hour it would revolutionise the north as it could function as one huge agglomeration that could rival London. Think our a mini megacity of 14 million linked by high speed rail!!!!
 

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Germany, Spain, France, Italy, Spain all have a larger land area than the UK, so you'd expect them to benefit from HSR, but Belgium and Holland?

If they feel the need for a HSR system, surely we should have one!
Surely the thing about Belgium and Holland is that they're crucial to the integration of western European rail. It's hard to get from France to Denmark or northern Germany directly without going through one or both of them. Hence the high speed through Belgium and Holland. In the same way, HS2 isn't really for Warwickshire, Ox and Bucks commuters but for the major cities several hundred miles north. There's also the point that even if HS2 isn't built, then new infrastructure will have to be, as the existing network will reach near capacity in ten years. New HS lines will also free up space for long distance freight movements, as has happened in France.
 

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Not quite what it seems. To grasp HSR properly you need to think of Europe as one place, not separate nations. The Netherlands and Belgium have HSR for international connections- London - Brussels for example. It's one European High Speed Rail Network that we're working towards, not separate national networks.
Ah, I see what you mean. Thank you.
 

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The issue I have with this is all lines link to London. We should have high seed connections between the core cities like they do in France, Spain and Germany.

If Leeds, Manchester Newcastle and Liverpool were linked by a high speed line covering the route in say just over an hour it would revolutionise the north as it could function as one huge agglomeration that could rival London. Think our a mini megacity of 14 million linked by high speed rail!!!!
I completely agree, but where these decisions are made (Westminster?) they are unaware of the existence of the North of England!
 

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Some are pushing for the route to be built "backwards" - ie starting with Leeds/Manc to Brum... Bet that idea never even crossed the planners minds! Great idea though!
 

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Some are pushing for the route to be built "backwards" - ie starting with Leeds/Manc to Brum... Bet that idea never even crossed the planners minds! Great idea though!
This really has to be turned into more than an idea - It would be great for the North, bringing benefits to northern cities faster than if it was to be built London outwards. Construction should take the same amount of time (fingers crossed) so there shouldn't be too much opposition if this was raised.
 

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This really has to be turned into more than an idea - It would be great for the North, bringing benefits to northern cities faster than if it was to be built London outwards. Construction should take the same amount of time (fingers crossed) so there shouldn't be too much opposition if this was raised.
Of course there would, I can imagine MP's from London saying "No, this is unacceptable" just "because":nuts:
 

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whether we like it or not the British economy is London-centric, so any cost benefit analysis would indicatea lines leading into London as offering a better return.

The other side of this is that a line between Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds would not deliver as great a benefit and therefore it would be difficult to argue for the huge investment required. Thats not to say it won't happen in the future; but once the Northern Hub is introduced Leeds-Piccadilly will only be 40 mins anyway.
 

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Even then though, the speed could be improved. London - Ashford is 90km but 37 minutes on HS1. Leeds - Manchester is 70km so journey times could be cut to 30 minutes or under.
 

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Some are pushing for the route to be built "backwards" - ie starting with Leeds/Manc to Brum... Bet that idea never even crossed the planners minds! Great idea though!
Yeah interesting idea. It would be one way to guarantee the route gets finished. I think we can safely assume the proposed completion dates are pretty optimistic as it stands and I would be surprised if it makes it as far as Birmingham to be honest.
 

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Even then though, the speed could be improved. London - Ashford is 90km but 37 minutes on HS1. Leeds - Manchester is 70km so journey times could be cut to 30 minutes or under.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be beneficial, its currently at least two hours Leeds-Liverpool. I just don't see there being much likelihood of a case being made as the huge costs (probably even greater due to the penines) would not deliver an 'acceptable' benefit to those commiting the spending.
 
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