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I'm sure it is, but people getting new cars doesn't equate to increasing VMT/capita or total VMT. What do you think of that?
Exactly. bucksfan, logic seems to escape you again and again. By no means at all does the rate of sales of automobiles equate to people driving more. You do know that cars get old and need to be replaced after several years, don't you?
 

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Whoops... I meant to say I don't really want 94 expanded but bucksfans's post was relevant it doesn't need to be disparaged just because it's "from the other side."
My tone may be sharp, but it is indeed illogical to state that an increase in automobile sales is at all correlative to increased highway use or VMT statistics, which are shown to be dropping.
 

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I understand, but I don't see how it's illogical. Car replacement is probably a major part of it, but it seems a bit premature to simply dismiss the possibility of an increase in car usage whether short term or not.
 

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Whoops... I meant to say I don't really want 94 expanded but bucksfans's post was relevant it doesn't need to be disparaged just because it's "from the other side."
Didn't you know that in this forum your not allowed to have an opinion that differs from a few unnamed posters? Especially regarding automobiles.

I know you follow this forum enough to know that anyone who drives a car is a terrible American citizen.
 

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Well here is what actually happening. The US DOT just reported "that travel on all roads and streets dropped by 0.4 percent for June 2013 compared with the same month last year, or about 900 million vehicle miles."

So despite new car sales total vehicle miles traveled continued dropping.
 

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Well here is what actually happening. The US DOT just reported "that travel on all roads and streets dropped by 0.4 percent for June 2013 compared with the same month last year, or about 900 million vehicle miles."

So despite new car sales total vehicle miles traveled continued dropping.
I really hate the idea of getting in the middle of these really stupid arguements but this stat is interesting and I would like to ask a question to anyone here who would like to answer. Since vehicular travel on all roads is dropping, a clear fact, could the cause of this be attributed to the fact that the work force is shrinking or has shrunk?

Also, the increased car sales that are happening now should not be compared to or factored in the study the US DOT did in the last year. The increase in car sales didn't happen in June of 2013 but in July of 2013.

From the JSonline article: Across southeast Wisconsin in July, the number of new cars and light trucks registered was up nearly 20% compared with the same month a year ago, according to Reg-Trak, an auto industry analysis company based in Waterloo, Wis. The numbers are similar for the entire state, Reg-Trak says.
 

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I really hate the idea of getting in the middle of these really stupid arguements but this stat is interesting and I would like to ask a question to anyone here who would like to answer. Since vehicular travel on all roads is dropping, a clear fact, could the cause of this be attributed to the fact that the work force is shrinking or has shrunk?
That may play a part. But I believe the economy has been expanding ever so modestly for awhile now.

A lot of factors contribute to it; baby boomers are getting too old to drive and are moving into condos and more walkable areas where services are more convenient. The millenial generation is shunning the auto and choosing the urban life.

Awareness is growing of how expensive auto ownership is. From the AAA website, 2012 average cost of car ownership is $8,946/yr when factoring in gas, maintenace, financing, registration, depreciation, insurance, etc.....(how much mass transit could our society afford if we each gave up one of our households multiple vehicles?)

Awarness is growing that the cheap oil is gone and now we have to drill 2 miles below the sea or dig up tar sands and convert it into oil instead of the good ole' days when you stuck a pipe in the ground and out came the bubblin' crude. Land is becoming more expensive which will reduce spawl. Basically the days of cheap everything are over and we are beginning to wring out all that waste in how we live and are starting to live more efficiently, which is a very,very good thing.
 

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Who says VMT are down in WI. Not WISDOT. See all miles. A stall in freeway miles, but increase in local roads is driving all miles up.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/travel/counts/docs/vmt-historical.pdf

The long future I think is bright for cars with self driving cars in 2020 and electric cars breaking the oil addiction. The fact is people don't like mass transit, it is just a necessity when density prohibits auto traffic. In Europe they love bicycles and mopeds to avoid it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323407104579038832031956964.html
 

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Who says VMT are down in WI. Not WISDOT. See all miles. A stall in freeway miles, but increase in local roads is driving all miles up.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/travel/counts/docs/vmt-historical.pdf

The long future I think is bright for cars with self driving cars in 2020 and electric cars breaking the oil addiction.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323407104579038832031956964.html
So why are we expanding relatively uncongested freeways?

Also, you forgot to factor in the widescale adoption of jet packs and personal helicopters that we've been hearing about since 1957.
 

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So why are we expanding relatively uncongested freeways?

Also, you forgot to factor in the widescale adoption of jet packs and personal helicopters that we've been hearing about since 1957.
Because they stalled, not crashed. They will go up in the future. You build high capacity roads for 40-50 years of use.

Flying cars where promised to us, must be a conspiracy that keeps them from us. The answer is probably either in area 51 or mulders file cabinet.
 

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Who says VMT are down in WI. Not WISDOT. See all miles. A stall in freeway miles, but increase in local roads is driving all miles up.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/travel/counts/docs/vmt-historical.pdf
I don't particularly want to wade into this discussion, but the link you provided appears to show VMT peaking in 2004, at around 60 billion (the far right column). I can't be certain without knowing more about this document, but I would guess the 'miles' column is actual miles of roadway.
 

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I don't particularly want to wade into this discussion, but the link you provided appears to show VMT peaking in 2004, at around 60 billion (the far right column). I can't be certain without knowing more about this document, but I would guess the 'miles' column is actual miles of roadway.
I have to correct myself. I was looking at miles built. VMT is stalled in both categories. Here is the context. It peaked in 2004 and bottomed in 2008 (makes sense considering the different economies). So VMT is down 3% from 2004, but up 1.9% from the 2004 bottom. How much of the decline is the economy vs society trends. I will not wade in to that now. Either way, look at the long term trend people.
 

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I have to correct myself. I was looking at miles built. VMT is stalled in both categories. Here is the context. It peaked in 2004 and bottomed in 2008 (makes sense considering the different economies). So VMT is down 3% from 2004, but up 1.9% from the 2004 bottom. How much of the decline is the economy vs society trends. I will not wade in to that now. Either way, look at the long term trend people.
The long term trend is flat miles driven despite increased lane miles, flat gas tax revenue & increasing borrowing to pay for all the road projects.

It's time to be fiscally prudent, we can't afford limitless public racetracks.

It's funny that toll roads are never brought up, I suppose that never occurs to someone who doesn't have to pay the tab.
 

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The long term trend is flat miles driven despite increased lane miles, flat gas tax revenue & increasing borrowing to pay for all the road projects.

It's time to be fiscally prudent, we can't afford limitless public racetracks.

It's funny that toll roads are never brought up, I suppose that never occurs to someone who doesn't have to pay the tab.
Nobody said they wouldn't be in favor of toll roads. Toll roads are completely fair but nobody can talk about being fiscally prudent when they support an unnecessary high speed rail network while our country is reaching its debt ceiling.

Our highways and interchanges in the Milwaukee area are reaching the end of their useful life and need to be rebuilt and rehabbed. Expanding them for the future while they do that is being fiscally prudent instead of waiting to expand them at a later date when it will be even more expensive.
 

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Nobody said they wouldn't be in favor of toll roads. Toll roads are completely fair but nobody can talk about being fiscally prudent when they support an unnecessary high speed rail network while our country is reaching its debt ceiling.

Our highways and interchanges in the Milwaukee area are reaching the end of their useful life and need to be rebuilt and rehabbed. Expanding them for the future while they do that is being fiscally prudent instead of waiting to expand them at a later date when it will be even more expensive.
So, do you support or oppose toll roads in WI? Also, you never responded about flat VMT, what do you think about that?

When you go to the store to buy a belt, do you always buy the larger, more expensive size, even if you're not gaining weight?
 

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So, do you support or oppose toll roads in WI? Also, you never responded about flat VMT, what do you think about that?

When you go to the store to buy a belt, do you always buy the larger, more expensive size, even if you're not gaining weight?
I would fully support toll roads as long as none of my money went to improving the bus system since I don't use that form of transportation. And I feel like I would be correct in assuming that the bus system would fizzle away wheras highways would flourish if both were funded only by their respective users.

I think VMT will increase as we continue to pull out of the recession and automobile purchases continue to rise or if gas prices finally drop. Perhaps it's time to start lookin for more sites to drill in the US so we can become more self sufficient regarding oil use.

And yes most people buy belts that have a couple extra notches just in case. I've never bought a belt that when I put it on I have to make it as large as it goes. I buy one that's right in the middle. You never know if your going to put some weight on or lose some. If I put on weight right after I bought the belt and had to go but a new one that would make my first belt a fiscally irresponsible purchase.
 

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I would fully support toll roads as long as none of my money went to improving the bus system since I don't use that form of transportation. And I feel like I would be correct in assuming that the bus system would fizzle away wheras highways would flourish if both were funded only by their respective users.

I think VMT will increase as we continue to pull out of the recession and automobile purchases continue to rise or if gas prices finally drop. Perhaps it's time to start lookin for more sites to drill in the US so we can become more self sufficient regarding oil use.

And yes most people buy belts that have a couple extra notches just in case. I've never bought a belt that when I put it on I have to make it as large as it goes. I buy one that's right in the middle. You never know if your going to put some weight on or lose some. If I put on weight right after I bought the belt and had to go but a new one that would make my first belt a fiscally irresponsible purchase.
I'm just going to comment & I'll leave this be as well.

1. Roads have never been solely user funded & most likely never will. Even with a gas tax, that money is a tax on all road travel & spent on very few roads. The difference is made up in income & property taxes.

2. We will never drill ourselves to oil independance. It might be possible @ $10.00/gallon gas, but there just aren't the resources out there. Gas prices will only increase in your lifetime.

3. Then why doesn't the DOT buy extra ROW so they could easily expand the freeways if there ever was congestion?
 
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