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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just read an article that said expos have left great legacies for their cities. It pointed out that Montreal expanded it's Metro system for expo, which dramatically improved public transit. If we would get a subway along Queen, or Eglinton, or Bathurst, I would be in favour of an expo. But we will be getting a subway that goes from a park to a park. Let's face it, after the expo, the portlands will become mostly parkland, as will the island airport. In other words, it will cost $3 billion to construct a subway that will be used by maybe a handful of people a day. We already have a useless empty University line, and a useless empty Sheppard line. Do we need a useless underwater line too? What is David Miller et al. smoking? Why aren't they more critical of this stupid tube idea? I'm all for a revitalized waterfront, but this scheme is just plain hairbrained.
 

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Assumming this "underwater" subway reaches up to Union, it would also be the DownTown Relief line that everyone has wanted so badly and quite possibly our Kingsway LRT that Pantalone wants as well.

The line drawn on the proposal simply represents the middle of the "oval" of possibilities.

Instead, what the TTC will likely propose after a 1 year study (if the airport lands are a valid possibility) would be something closer to:

Midpoint at union -- quite possibly under Front or elevated above the current GO trainshed.

Going east from Union:
- Follow the tracks and put a station at Parliament and Lakeshore (middle of East Bayfront)
- Run down Cherry to Comissioners (station near gateway to portlands)
- Run along Comissioners to Leslie (station near second gatway to portlands)
- Follow Lakeshore to Coxwell (Ashbridges Bay fireworks have never been easier to get to ;)
- Run up Coxwell to Danforth and terminate. Late on we can figure out how to get across the Don Valley to Don Mills.

Going west from Union:
- Follow Rail Corridor / Bremner to Skydome / CityPlace (station here)
- Try to use Van de Water Crescent to dip south of Gardiner / Lakeshore, with a station near Queens Quay and Bathurst
- Follow Bathurst south to the Island Airport. Keep in mind in this proposal the Western Gap for ships was moved south of the airport. The airport lands themselves are prime for about 9000 units.
- Plunk another station near the North West edge of the airport -- say 1/3rd in east, and 1/3rd south where the main east/west and north/south runways intersect.
- Run underwater to Newfoundland Road, then follow Remembrance Drive or Lakeshore to the mess of streets (Saskatchewan, PEI Cres, Princess Blvd) leading up to Dufferin.
- Follow the tracks in your standard "Kingsway LRT" configuration which Pantalone wishes to see -- that is follow Queensway until you hit Kingsway then head north up to Jane Station. Terminate there until we feel like expanding north on Jane.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
rbt said:
Assumming this "underwater" subway reaches up to Union, it would also be the DownTown Relief line that everyone has wanted so badly and quite possibly our Kingsway LRT that Pantalone wants as well.

The line drawn on the proposal simply represents the middle of the "oval" of possibilities.

Instead, what the TTC will likely propose after a 1 year study (if the airport lands are a valid possibility) would be something closer to:

Midpoint at union -- quite possibly under Front or elevated above the current GO trainshed.

Going east from Union:
- Follow the tracks and put a station at Parliament and Lakeshore (middle of East Bayfront)
- Run down Cherry to Comissioners (station near gateway to portlands)
- Run along Comissioners to Leslie (station near second gatway to portlands)
- Follow Lakeshore to Coxwell (Ashbridges Bay fireworks have never been easier to get to ;)
- Run up Coxwell to Danforth and terminate. Late on we can figure out how to get across the Don Valley to Don Mills.

Going west from Union:
- Follow Rail Corridor / Bremner to Skydome / CityPlace (station here)
- Try to use Van de Water Crescent to dip south of Gardiner / Lakeshore, with a station near Queens Quay and Bathurst
- Follow Bathurst south to the Island Airport. Keep in mind in this proposal the Western Gap for ships was moved south of the airport. The airport lands themselves are prime for about 9000 units.
- Plunk another station near the North West edge of the airport -- say 1/3rd in east, and 1/3rd south where the main east/west and north/south runways intersect.
- Run underwater to Newfoundland Road, then follow Remembrance Drive or Lakeshore to the mess of streets (Saskatchewan, PEI Cres, Princess Blvd) leading up to Dufferin.
- Follow the tracks in your standard "Kingsway LRT" configuration which Pantalone wishes to see -- that is follow Queensway until you hit Kingsway then head north up to Jane Station. Terminate there until we feel like expanding north on Jane.
You are assuming a much bigger transportation project than the one envisioned by city council. Also, council has agreed to drop the proposal of putting housing on the airport site, instead opting for, you guessed it, a park! They have also agreed that the western gap will not be filled. This means that all we have is a transit system to take us from Union station to the portlands (who knows what will be there after the expo), and to the island park, so instead of taking a $5 ferry to the island, you get to enjoy a $5 underwater journey (which is what a single transit fare will likely cost in 10 years). Is this what Toronto really needs now? Can't we turn the island airport into a park without spending $5 billion on a hairbrained expo scheme that is sure to lose money? Can't we develop the portlands by building a film studio, and remediating the soil for housing instead?
 

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Okay....somebody want to fill me in on excactly where this proposed underwater route is going?


I'm all for a looping LRT line going around the Islands and through the Portlands, looping up with the current and extended Queen's Quay line. Who knows where this "underwater" part is? I don't even think it's necessary.






"If we would get a subway along Queen, or Eglinton, or Bathurst, I would be in favour of an expo. "


I would love one too...on all of them...but what good would that serve an Expo site? And I think we are talking about your basic ROW streetcar here...not a full blown subway.








"But we will be getting a subway that goes from a park to a park. Let's face it, after the expo, the portlands will become mostly parkland, as will the island airport."


I dunno...depends excactly where this thing is going...but the western end of HArbourfron and the Portlands (as well as East Bay Front) will some of the most dense residential in the city...hardly nowhere. They are talking about 40,000 new housing units there as well...might be lots of parkland...but still one hell of a large amount of non-parkland too.








"it will cost $3 billion to construct a subway that will be used by maybe a handful of people a day. We already have a useless empty University line, and a useless empty Sheppard line."


Well, I don't think whatever LRT line that's proposed is going to be costing $3 billion....and it will obviously be designed to have ridership after the Expo...I really don't think anybody would suggest spending $3 billion if it's going to have no ridership.

And what are you talking about....University line is useless and empty?????? Sheppard is useless and empty????? Com'on...be cynical....but try and keep it from being silly.








KGB
 

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The Yonge line would cease to function if it were not for the University line....what we need now is an eastern downtown relief line to take even more pressure off Yonge. Sheppard was a smart move...these areas of the old boroughs need some serious density...and this does the trick just fine....it's good that the city is focusing on this, rather than sticking to just downton/midtown.






KGB
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
OK, we're getting a little off topic here, but you can't tell me there weren't routes that were far more in need of a subway line than that stretch of Sheppard. The line was built along a stretch of single family houses and ravines, where most of the residents are middle class drivers. Even if Sheppard eventually grows into the line (which would mandate tearing down tens of thousands of bungalows, replacing them with high density affordable housing, and reducing Sheppard to four lanes), shouldn't we build lines where we need them now, not where we might need them in 20 years? The same applies to the portlands. It will take ten years alone just to build the west Donlands community and the east Bayfront community. Why don't we at least wait until those are underway before we make those routes a priority?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
KGB said:
I dunno...depends excactly where this thing is going...but the western end of HArbourfron and the Portlands (as well as East Bay Front) will some of the most dense residential in the city...hardly nowhere. They are talking about 40,000 new housing units there as well...might be lots of parkland...but still one hell of a large amount of non-parkland too.

KGB
The undwerwater subway will be from the foot of Cherry street in the portlands to the island airport. That's what is on the table. Once the fair is over, what purpose will this serve? Will it be a replacement for the ferry service? I like the ferry ride, because you get a nice view of the skyline! I would not want it replaced by an underwater subway. I guess if you hooked the line up to union station, then you could take the subway directly to the islands, which might be kind of cool. But who goes to the islands in the winter? Only the few hundred people who live there. Unless the portlands gets converted into high density housing, and the airport gets converted into an EXTREMELY popular year round attraction, the plan makes no sense at all.
 

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The undwerwater subway will be from the foot of Cherry street in the portlands to the island airport. That's what is on the table. Once the fair is over, what purpose will this serve? Will it be a replacement for the ferry service?

Actually, that's very much NOT true. That's one possibiliy out of tens of possibilities that would adequately serve a dual-site expo event. The TTC (through an EA process) will determine the actual placement of the transit line, and they will do so based on post Expo usage. This was described in the Expo document.

They haven't even started the public consultations to decide anything yet (let alone the trivial parts of the project like public transit), so how can you definitively say where it's going to go and it's usefulness afterward?

It will be as useful or useless as the residents of Toronto want it to be.

Know why City council said they prefer the airport to be an area without a ton of huge condos everywhere? It's because there are several rather large organizations within the city who have been fighting to have ir turned into parkland for decades. What we may get (if we as Torontonians want it) is something akin to the West Donlands.
 

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"you can't tell me there weren't routes that were far more in need of a subway line than that stretch of Sheppard. "

No...Sheppard was actually one of the priority routes...not quite #1...but up there. Eglinton was actually started and stopped...and Sheppard was cut short at Don Mills. Sheppard had some pretty high ridership, and was a good choice because of it's feeder routes (as opposed to say Finch).







"The line was built along a stretch of single family houses and ravines, where most of the residents are middle class drivers"


It was at one point way in the past...been there lately?

It's actually a pretty high density, mixed-use, mixed-income stretch. And this has gone crazy with development since the line was announced and built.

Which was the whole point...this has to happen in the formerly suburban-style developed boroughs...and it is working.

It definetely needs to get finished...to STC (or at least go one station at a time...there are some pretty serious intersections with mixed-use density).








"The undwerwater subway will be from the foot of Cherry street in the portlands to the island airport."

Yea...I already know the general area where it's starting from and ending up....I'm asking where the actual line in between them is going.










"Unless the portlands gets converted into high density housing"


Dude...we are talking $17 billion....40,000 housing units...a lot of commercial and institutional and cultural space....it's going to have to connect with the rest of downtown by transit...obviously with some sort of LRT extension to what already exists. Although I could see it being serviced by a downtown relief subway line coming in from the north, and serviceing the eastern part of downton, south of Bloor.






KGB
 

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What we need is a lakeshore relief line all the way to Long Branch. The Queen streetcar itself is slow and always full.
 

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rbt, I'd love to see your plan implemented. I appoint you TTC Commissioner and Mayor.

Hah... Lets not get carried away. I will be at the meetings, probably with hundreds of others, proposing my thoughts and will let the professionals determine whether there is any value in that proposal.

I have high respect for the TTC with Sheppard. Subway to nowhere, but despite that ridership growth has been phenominal. Even Bessarion seems to have some people on the platform regularly now. After as many years of operation as it took to construct (say 2010) I think Sheppard will be considered a success.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
KGB said:
"Unless the portlands gets converted into high density housing"
Dude...we are talking $17 billion....40,000 housing units...a lot of commercial and institutional and cultural space....it's going to have to connect with the rest of downtown by transit...obviously with some sort of LRT extension to what already exists. Although I could see it being serviced by a downtown relief subway line coming in from the north, and serviceing the eastern part of downton, south of Bloor.

KGB
John Barber seems to agree that the current plan makes no sense:

Expo 2015: vehicle to a car-free island oasis
Headshot of John Barber

By JOHN BARBER

Saturday, April 16, 2005 Page M3Key

Despite his lovable but bizarre digression on the subject of the Mammoth Cheese of 1883 ("To be admired by many a beau/ In the city of Toronto"), Mayor David Miller made all the right noises this week during council's first poke at the idea of this city hosting a top-drawer world's fair in 2015.

He enthused about his experience as a wee immigrant lad at Expo '67 in Montreal, dreamed about Hogtown making a big splash (while acknowledging that there has to be a better reason than that to justify an Expo) and moved that the city "specifically undertake a visioning charette [sic]" -- a design workshop in English, a charrette in French -- to engage communities, stakeholders, etc. etc. in developing the big idea.

But then he joined with his colleagues in legislating all kinds of fiddly conditions about what can and -- more importantly -- what can't happen at the proposed waterfront Expo site, which is to be split between the port lands in the east and the island airport lands in the west. The council began the familiar task of weaving a regulatory straitjacket even before they had developed any clear idea of exactly what it was they were seeking to trap, confuse and confine.

What kind of vision is that?


One especially retrograde resolution, moved by Councillor Kyle Rae and supported by Mayor Miller, froze the current position of the Western Gap and attempted to sterilize the airport lands post-fair, thus undermining the main reason for replacing the airport in the first place while ensuring its site remains unusable for anything else -- beginning with an Expo.


Obviously, you need to look outside City Hall for a vision worthy of a city worthy of an Expo.
And preferably back in time as well, to 1971, when esteemed architect Eberhard Zeidler first proposed -- and almost built -- something called Harbour City, a Venetian-style, canal-based community housing 60,000 people on a radically renaturalized airport site, connected to the city by bridges and separated from the rest of the island by a new navigable gap just south of the current airport.

The new neighbourhood was to be mid-rise and resolutely watery, the architect said at the time. "Public plazas, private yards, restaurants, shops and studios would have opened to the waterways."

In many ways, Harbour City anticipated the plan recently sketched out by the Expo consultants, including their (now ruled-out) proposal to relocate the Western Gap. But over the years Mr. Zeidler's Harbour City evolved into a scheme even more farsighted -- one that stands today as a highly attractive solution to the current Expo plan's biggest problems.

Led by Mr. Zeidler and a group of respected engineers and consultants, the Toronto Archipelagos Group proposed to extend the new lagoon city from the airport site into the lake on a series of new islands made, like the airport site itself, by landfilling. At the time, about 10 years ago, group member Richard Gilbert maintained that hundreds of hectares of new land could be created in the shallow waters near the airport and Ontario Place cheaper than Markham farmland could be rezoned for mini-malls.

Indeed, it would almost certainly be cheaper and more sensible to stage an Expo on a single, greatly expanded and reconfigured airport site than it would be to divide it between two sites on either side of the bay. To connect its two halves, the divided site would require an extremely expensive, underwater transit line of marginal usefulness once the Expo ends. And it is entirely likely that freezing the eastern port lands until after 2015 would delay the redevelopment that is now just getting going there.

Building a World's Fair on artificial islands surrounded by water is such a good idea that Montreal did it 40 years ago when building Expo '67. And if it follows Montreal's lead, Toronto will enjoy a spectacular opportunity for urban expansion once the fair closes down -- 200 or more hectares of highly desirable, fully serviced, transit-equipped raw land on the edge of downtown, enough for beautiful parks as well as homes and workplaces for tens of thousands of people.

The advantage of moving the Western Gap south of the current airport, according to Mr. Zeidler, is that it would allow the existing passage to be bridged while preserving the separateness of the island and its residential community.

"The Toronto Islands should remain as they are, inaccessible to traffic, because that's their charm," he said in a telephone interview from New York this week. No redevelopment of the airport site, he warned, should function "as a backdoor to the islands, because that would destroy them."

But no such conflicts would arise on several hundred hectares of new and reclaimed islands between the city and the park. "There is a fantastic chance for Toronto to gain new land where we can use it, where all the services are," Mr. Zeidler said.

If Toronto wants to thrive, according to Mr. Gilbert, it can't continue to allow 90 per cent of all regional growth to occur in the outer suburbs.
"Toronto has got to get really serious about increasing its population and this would be a good way to do it," he said.

Building a new Amsterdam in the Humber Bay -- no high-rises, with beaches and canals abutting every new address -- is a dream worth having. Even more attractive is the prospect of pioneering an ultra-modern form of transit on the site, built for the fair and surviving to serve the community that replaces it. Done well, it would permit severe restrictions -- even a ban -- on the use of private cars in the new archipelago neighbourhood.

Imagine if the overriding purpose of Expo 2015 was to launch the development of the world's largest car-free community, virtually in the heart of the metropolis. That is a vision.
 

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I more or less agree with his general idea. If a top-notch fair is going to be done (and it has to be a sold-out show-stopper, or don't bother), it is better off taling the airport site...reclaiming a whole bunch more land, creating a larger bay than already exists at Coronation Park. It could reach all the way over to Ontario Place, which should be part of the fair anyway (duh..."ONTARIO" Place), and including the Ex grounds as well (which all need some kind of invigorating). Might as well relocate Lakeshore (or just not have it come off the Gardiner until it's past Dufferin...I don't know why it does anyway).

That way, all that wasted land from Coronation park, north to Waterparkcity, and right over to the Princes' Gates could all become part of it. That is easily 800-1000 acres...more than enough space for a huge fair, which already has worthwhile built forms in place...all it needs is filling in...and it would ensure it's usefullness afterwords.

And the beauty, is that there is already an LRT line in place...just maybe upgrade or re-align it a bit...and one that will certainly be well used after the fair....and certainly wouldn't require the kind of money for this "underwater" thing they are talking about (whatever the fuk it is).

Sticking something way over on the south end of the Portlands would be foolish.....we are talking only 10 years from now...that part of the Portlands is years down the road from that in terms of development....it has to go all down the East Bayfront before it evern gets to the north part of the Portlands.

I also like the idea of keeping the islands...islands...by moving the wester gap south....it's a perfect solution.

It would have been cool to have seen a Zeidler lagoon city back in 1971....loved his 70's high tech architectural style...Ontario Place pods are so classic. Problem is, he stopped doing that stuff a long time ago...now he designs kinda blah stuff.






KGB
 

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I tried scanning the lagoon project from this book I took out at school. Toronto a photo study of urban development; great book. I thought all those projects were going on for the future, but then I look at the date 1969.:D I found some sick projects in there, but anyway here's a pic of Zeidler's lagoon city.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
KGB said:
I more or less agree with his general idea. If a top-notch fair is going to be done (and it has to be a sold-out show-stopper, or don't bother), it is better off taling the airport site...reclaiming a whole bunch more land, creating a larger bay than already exists at Coronation Park. It could reach all the way over to Ontario Place, which should be part of the fair anyway (duh..."ONTARIO" Place), and including the Ex grounds as well (which all need some kind of invigorating). Might as well relocate Lakeshore (or just not have it come off the Gardiner until it's past Dufferin...I don't know why it does anyway).

That way, all that wasted land from Coronation park, north to Waterparkcity, and right over to the Princes' Gates could all become part of it. That is easily 800-1000 acres...more than enough space for a huge fair, which already has worthwhile built forms in place...all it needs is filling in...and it would ensure it's usefullness afterwords.

And the beauty, is that there is already an LRT line in place...just maybe upgrade or re-align it a bit...and one that will certainly be well used after the fair....and certainly wouldn't require the kind of money for this "underwater" thing they are talking about (whatever the fuk it is).

Sticking something way over on the south end of the Portlands would be foolish.....we are talking only 10 years from now...that part of the Portlands is years down the road from that in terms of development....it has to go all down the East Bayfront before it evern gets to the north part of the Portlands.

I also like the idea of keeping the islands...islands...by moving the wester gap south....it's a perfect solution.

It would have been cool to have seen a Zeidler lagoon city back in 1971....loved his 70's high tech architectural style...Ontario Place pods are so classic. Problem is, he stopped doing that stuff a long time ago...now he designs kinda blah stuff.






KGB
Now you see the folly of the current plan. I hope city council comes to their senses and changes the plans. The one site plan makes a hell of a lot more sense! David Crombie is currently devising a plan to integrate Ontario Place and the ex. Imagine the possibilities with a world's fair incorporating those sites!
 

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Yes...I guess a contigious site has it's advantages in general...I also don't see anything wrong with dual sites either...in general...it also has some advantages...gets people around the city.

But this particualr plan just isn't right for it. The Portlands is one blank slate, that needs to be carefully planned for it's uses forever down the road...and I don't think trying to accomodate a world's fair infastructure as it's first infastructure, and try using it as a neighbourhood afterwards is a good idea...that place has to be planned for it's intended use from scratch.

The combined airport, lake reclaimation, Exibition/Ontario Place grounds are about as perfectly geared towards a world's fair type of thing as you can get...what the hell is the EX in the first place...a giant fair ground!!! LOL...and it already has an enormous history as the largest in the world. Ontario Place is already a showcase for Ontario...excactly what we would build anyway...and excactly what it was designed and built for in the first place....and it's already there...sure it would need some serious cash to make it new and exciting...but the infastructure is there.

I just don't understand why they would want to build another subway or LRT line, when one is already serving the island airport, Queen's Quay area...that's just wacky...all they would have to do is extend the one already there...which they will be doing anyway.

I am actually all for a streetcar line connecting with the Queen's Quay line, running in a tunnel under the western gap...but emerging right onto a surface line that runs on some well-place route through the islands, stopping within a short walk of all the major attractions...and then into another tunnel under the eastern gap, emerging at Cherry beach, and then continuing north along Cherry St, then turning onto Queen's Quay East, and ending back up at either Union Station, or just continueing in one big loop.

I love the ferrys, but they are expensive, can have HUGE line-ups, and are very cost inneficient to run as a year-round operation...it costs the city a lot of money. It also limits the amount of people who go over to the islands...it only gets about 1.5 million per year...that's not very much. Most people want to go on the weekend...and most people know the line-ups and wait times are ridiculous...so they don't bother. Maybe the ferrys can stay and run along with the streetcars during the summer, if the extra ridership makes it work...or I guess people will still want to go on a boat ride for the fun of it.

And a streetcar line of the island would be dirt cheap to put in...doesn't need anything fancy at all...no intersections or any of the expensive, complicated crap you need in the city....just find a good spot to run the track...just plant trees or grass on the side of it...it's not like it needs a fence or anything at all. And maybe use the current old streetcars which will be about up for replacement by around that time anyway...no need to buy a whole bunch of new equipment. And a streetcar just seems to fit the laid back, old fashioned attitude of the islands anyway...it would add some charm, as well as a very efficient way of getting around the islands...or on and off it....at least the people living there would have a much better way to go get groceries and stuff.

I think it's important to keep the islands...islands...and their status as a unique urban community that is car-free....incorporating that as part of the Fair as well...would make a big statement...I doubt many people know things like this about Toronto.

Toronto has the kind of progressive thinking groups and individuals to make a world's fair the kind of thing it used to be...facinating, educating, entertaining, and one of those things people will talk about for decades. If ya don't blow it that is....they are just throwing ideas around at the moment...let's hope they manage to come up with something brilliant in the end. The only problem is, even if they do that, there's no guaranteeing the official body that governs these things will give it the nod...we have bad luck on our side in these things. If that's the case, then I say screw them, and make up a new catagory ourselves...better than the one currently used, and start a new trend in these things. Sounds like nothing more than a "franchise" thing anyway...and I generally don't like franchises.







KGB
 

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Has the fair really losty some of its glory? My father was in Hannover in 2000 and felt it made Montreals look very small
 
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