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+ points

1. JL store (landmark building hopefully)
2. Large covered arcade.
3. redevelopment of eyesore area of leeds.
4. circular access roads to MSCP (look sweet)
5. Large new public square
6. Pedestrinisation of eastgate (VV good IMO)

- points

1. loss of bookends (not acceptable in any way)
2. retention of the worst part of eastgate. (inexcusable)
3. over massing of the main mall block.
4. the scheme seems to be lacking a coherant image (seems really dissjointed)
5. the scheme personally seems to have been altered to reduce cost and sacrifices some of the best elements of the original scheme.

please people let me know your plus and negative points for the scheme too

It's not really a list of plus and minus points but a few observations:

1. The "bookend" buildings were always scheduled for demolition as part of the Eastgate redevelopment.

2. The retention of the more modern block on the south side of Eastgate is, I suppose, controversial but I've never felt the scorn towards it that some people have. Sure, it's rundown but it may scrub up quite well.

3. A concern expressed over the previous proposal was over the lack of open space. I'm not sure how much more there is under the present scheme but I suppose we should give credit for the possibility of the open space having been increased.

4. I don't know that the scheme turns its back on the rest of the city centre but I'd want to see some more detailed plans and renders before making a judgement.

5. I'm interested that Thomas Heatherwick is no longer involved and wonder why that is. It could be down to cost-cutting but it could equally be down to a nervousness about his ability to design a large building after the debacle over his B of The Bang project in Manchester.

6. I'm not too bothered about the coherence of the whole development. In fact, part of the attraction of the previous scheme was the way that it split the development into three discrete but linked areas. I'm not really feeling that with the new plans but it may be down to a lack of detail.

So, for me, the jury's out at the moment. I'm just glad that there is some movement and I hope that quality issues will be ironed out during the detailed desing work. And Even Flow is quite right to say that we shouldn't accept any old shit out of gratitude that a developer is willing to come and build in our city.
 

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I went to the consultation exhibition myself this afternoon and certainly raised a good few questions. Starting with the no doubt much asked "will the centre have just the same old chain stores or will actually have something worth visiting, how many tenants will be attracted to the centre and will there be an adverse affect on the likes of Briggate and Commercial Street" their response was the scheme will attract some of the hundreds (apparently) of stores which don't have a presence in Leeds to open a store in Leeds and it won't just be a case of duplicating or replacing stores elsewhere in the city and Eastgate will have a positive effect on the existing shopping core through direct pedestrian links with the rest of the city centre and Leeds supposedly has a lower vacancy rate compared with Manchester, Liverpool or Birmingham.

Also I mentioned that the old buildings shouldn't be demolished (although they claimed that the former Lyon's works was apparently no longer structurally sound and the scheme would be unviable if Eastgate was built around the old buildings which I am personally critical of) and Hoagys was mooted anyway for demolition for the potential NGT scheme. Also the car park will have a capacity of around 2,000 whereas the present surface car park's have a capacity of around 1,000 and could appear to be overbearing (as a much larger version of St Johns Car Park visible from Dortmund Square visible from Blomfield Square perhaps).



I also made note that John Lewis should certainly not be yellow brick and it would be much better to be red brick and Portland stone to match in much better with the Reginald Blomfield buildings.

On another note which I didn't mention is looking at the Eastgate masterplan wouldn't it be logical to assume looking at the masterplan that a third anchor store could site to the north east of the development (surely as a way of increasing footfall) in addition to M&S at the north end of the development and John Lewis at the east end of the development. http://www.eastgateleeds.co.uk/assets/downloads/eastgatemasterplan.pdf

Finally if someone goes along to the consultation tomorrow could someone ask how many Gregg's this development will have. ;)
 

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Yes, and if we are always seeking mediocrity we will never move forward, nor create an actual identity for the city which we sadly lack.

...

I think I should also point out I have supported this scheme from the start and have probably posted more messages in this thread than I have in any other, but it's not going to stop me saying what I see, and what I see now is a huge disappointment.
It seems like Leeds' story all the time - having to take some watered-down 'second best' option and "we should be bloody grateful for that".

While it's true that if you strive for perfection you will be disappointed, that doesn't mean you should accept any old shit that you happen to be offered.
 

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Don't people moan, you can't please everyone thats a fact, so can you keep your boring opinions to yourself if you haven't got anything positive to add to this discussion.


I on the other hand think this scheme is fantastic for this part of Leeds, i didn't expect anything better than that. well done :applause:
 

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Boring? What would be boring is if every thread were just filled with Brilliant! Love it! Amazing, well the best we could expect anyway which isn't actually all that much is it but who cares it's still amazing! Get the **** out of here you heretic with your unpatriotic views! :banana::applause::cheers1::blahblah:

Nothing wrong with wanting the best.
 

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Nothing wrong with wanting the best.
Except it leaving it you in a constant, never ending state of disappointment because when reality kicks in, your wildest expectations are never, ever met.

It's amazing how one minute someone on here likes a building then, when it's finally built, they get their panties in a bunch because the building doesn't look exactly like the render, isn't made of solid gold, or one of the builders made comments about their partners or the cladding looked at them funny.

Eastgate has been on the cards for so long, and the plans have changed so many times, well boo fucking hoo if they've moved the John Lewis and it now looks like a bread bin. I'd be happy if they just strategically nuked* that end of Leeds and started work tomorrow.


*This has nothing to do with being thrown out of Hoagys when I was 18.
 

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It's amazing how one minute someone on here likes a building then, when it's finally built, they get their panties in a bunch because the building doesn't look exactly like the render, isn't made of solid gold, or one of the builders made comments about their partners or the cladding looked at them funny.
Funny that, I must have missed Eastgate Quarters being built, my mistake.

Surely using your logic, now is the time to point out the issues, before it's actually built?

In response to Everlast, all I would ask is: Do you have the phone number for the Opal group? You'd better ring them and tell them they can build another turd tower anywhere they want in the city. After all, according to your way of thinking, if you've got money to invest, you can build whatever and wherever you want! That's Leeds' bold new vision!
 

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In response to Everlast, all I would ask is: Do you have the phone number for the Opal group? You'd better ring them and tell them they can build another turd tower anywhere they want in the city. After all, according to your way of thinking, if you've got money to invest, you can build whatever and wherever you want! That's Leeds' bold new vision!

I did not say anything like that, i was pointing out your moaning for no reason what so ever, this scheme is hardly going to destroy that part of Leeds nor is it going to Bring Leeds down a league, this will only have positive effects on Leeds, and i don't know how you can judge a place before its even built...

You can't expect perfection from any building built in this world, because lets face it nothing in this world is perfect so why don't you give it a rest.
 

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Funny that, I must have missed Eastgate Quarters being built, my mistake.
It was a generalisation of pretty much every single thread, and every single completed development posted here on the Leeds forums. I'm quite aware Eastgate Quarters is just a lump of cardboard cut outs and a glint in Hammerson's eye.

Surely using your logic, now is the time to point out the issues, before it's actually built?
Congratulations you found my hidden cryptic message! The above was simply an alcohol fuelled (Ouzo, my neighbours are back from Crete) observation of what will happen in this thread when it's finally all built.

It's the internet, of course feel free to express your feelings for and against a development, but the whole 'Wait for perfection' tone is just a complete waste of everyone's time as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, everyone's idea of perfection is completely different (Was 'perfection' the £1bn plans from 2007? Does it involve a York Stone statue of yours truly in the middle of Eastgate? Well?).

Hammerson have chopped an entire Trinity Quarter off the cost of their Eastgate Quarter plans, presumably because we're coming out of the arse end of a recession. Quelle surprise. Yet people are throwing their toys out of the pram because the plans don't cost enough, aren't as grand as the originals and most importantly (and this is typical of Yorkshire) it's not got anything that the 'neighbours' don't already have.

I can see why people are upset that the 'bookends' would go as part of the new plans, no point telling the internet though. Tell Hammerson.
 

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Except it leaving it you in a constant, never ending state of disappointment because when reality kicks in, your wildest expectations are never, ever met.

It's amazing how one minute someone on here likes a building then, when it's finally built, they get their panties in a bunch because the building doesn't look exactly like the render, isn't made of solid gold, or one of the builders made comments about their partners or the cladding looked at them funny.

Eastgate has been on the cards for so long, and the plans have changed so many times, well boo fucking hoo if they've moved the John Lewis and it now looks like a bread bin. I'd be happy if they just strategically nuked* that end of Leeds and started work tomorrow.


*This has nothing to do with being thrown out of Hoagys when I was 18.
Go lazygamer....I'm with you on this one!
 

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Im a bit pissed that the bookends are going because they are part of blomfields original design for what is one of leeds grandest and best loved streets, any one heard of conservation, hello.........

If JL wanted a new store on the site of the town hall you all would be chatting this shit would you. you would all be up in arms. Thats my gripe with this, adding the fact that the shitest part of eastgate is left untouched and the bookend go stupid and driven only by profit and not architectural quality and astectics, which is wrong people full stop.....
 

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I visited the exhibition yesterday and spoke at length with the scheme architect. I had been very impressed by the original scheme as I felt it was high quality and emphasised its context and contribution to the city rather than turning its back on its surroundings. Based on what I could see of the new plans I was concerned that although the new scheme would still deliver some of the essentials - attracting new shops, providing better sized units for some existing retailers, extending the retail core, new/improved public realm - the quality had dropped and we were now looking at just another shopping centre that could be anywhere.

I still don't think it is as good as the original scheme but I came away much happier. Mostly this comes from the fact that the original scheme probably wasn't quite as good as I thought and the new one is better than I feared.

Key points from the conversation:

Quality
The architect emphasised that Templar Arcade is just that: an arcade and not a mall.

Footbridge
The arcade is two level with ground level at the western entrance becoming the upper level at the eastern entrance.

The upper level then continues over the footbridge to John Lewis. Sadly the bridge will allow the NGT catenary to pass under it! I asked about having a bridge across Eastgate in the light of the great play the original plans had made of the Headrow/Eastgate axis:

Is it glass sided in order to obstruct the view as little as possible? No real answer to that.

Why a bridge at all since it makes no difference to the length of the walk from the car park to John Lewis? Confirmed it is "psychological" and driven by the retailer. Also because the twin levels in the arcade, and the Leeds tradition of entering department stores on different levels (I can only think of M&S?), are features of the scheme.

I said that in which case the bridge looks like a bit of a kludge and that they were slightly embarrassed about it. Why not make of a feature of it? He said that the outline only shows the minimum configuration and it could be expanded.

Sth Side of Eastgate
Retention of the buildings on the south side of Eastgate is at the insistence of Hammerson's and not the preference of the Architect. The intended use for these frontages is cafes and other small units. The existing buildings provide units of more or less the right size.

Cinema
The loss of the cinema is a disappointment to the architect. Hammerson's say no operator is interested. Architect thought this was because the major operators are all represented in the City Centre. I disabused him of this notion.

Expansion
I asked how the design of the scheme allows for future extension - in particular across Bridge Street given this site was part of the original plans and presumably is still under Hammerson's ownership, but also to the Millgarth site.

It will be possible to reconfigure and expand Lydia Street. (I'm guessing to allow the upper arcade level to continue on a bridge over Bridge St. A good location for a multi-screen cinema?).

The Millgarth site is problematic due to the Lady Beck culvert. He said the culvert bisects the site (N-S) and the police station is effectively built with two legs straddling the beck. He said this makes the site inapropriate for retail and suggested it would be better divided into separate plots either side of the culvert used for hotel/office.

Apparently issues with the culvert/Environment Agency requirements would have meant changes to the original masterplan even had the recession not intervened.

Retailers
Crucially, the aim is still to attract high end brands to the area between John Lewis and the Victoria Quarter. He mentioned that All Saints are occupying two units at VC because a single unit was not big enough for their requirements. I asked why they didn't have an arcade here (Sydney st. & Ebenezer St.)? He said this was:

1) Guidance from Leeds City Council saying there were already enough arcades! (It was a shame no council rep was there - to confirm/deny this and to discuss traffic issues).

2) Some retailers prefer open streets to covered. He gave an example but I can't remember which one.

Vicar Lane
I told him I don't think that MSCP ramps are an appropriate frontage for the Vicar Lane/New York Road corner at the NW of the site.

Original masterplan had major route continuing Templar Arcade west straight through to Vicar Lane. The architect confessed that the new masterplan rather turned its back on the part of Vicar Lane north of the Headrow but that this would have effectively been the case in the old plan anyway. That the arcade now loops back to Eastgate is partly because of feedback from CABE.

He had looked at the choice of the route from the arcade to upper Vicar Lane (Little Templar St.). The advantages of a straight continuation of the arcade are outweighed by the advantage of creating the entrance by the Templar Hotel and opposite the Grand Arcade. I tend to agree but I told him that Little Templar St. looks very narrow. He disagreed with this. (Perhaps it only looks narrow compared to the main arcade). I also said that the so called Little Templar Sq. was laughably small. Didn't get a response to that one!

LCC has, or had, an ambition to close the east bound exit from the IRR to Vicar Lane. (This is the one that exits the motorway on the right. The idea is/was to provide a new exit at Regent Street aka the Mabgate Loop). He wasn't aware of this but said it didn't break the design for MSCP access.

George St
The architect said that buses currently routed on Eastgate would be diverted via Vicar Lane and George St. The masterplan pdf shows George Street as one way so I don't know how this works.

George St. will also be used for servicing.

Public Realm
I said I didn't think the public space was of the same quality as before - in particular the original Blomfield Sq vs the new Eastgate Sq. I felt it had the character of a gap in the buildings, albeit nowhere near the embarrassment that is Dortmund Sq. It runs out this is a design theme drawn from the existing examples of Victoria SQ. and Dortmund Sq.

Trinity!
He was rather dismissive of Trinity dropping the Miralles roof.

Other
Forgot to ask about Greggs. Sorry ValVerde. The other question I meant to ask but forgot was has the overall amount of retail space been reduced?


Overall I'm positive. I have some reservations and disappointments and some questions that will remain unanswered until the detail designs appear.

The scheme still delivers:

- A major new arcade and hopefully not an anonymous shopping mall
- Extensive new public realm including lots of pedestrianisation and a new square.
- A John Lewis
- A significant extension to the retail core
- Larger and better configured space for existing retailers
- Opportunities to attract new retailers
- Opportunities to attact high end brands, in particular between VC and JL

It will:
- Encourage firther traffic reduction/pedestrianisation on The Headrow, New Briggate and Vicar Lane

On the downside:
- No cinema
- The linkages to Quarry Hill are poor.
- Perhaps not quite the design and architectural quality of before but I think - this will really only be determined when more details appear.
- Missed opportunity for continuing the arcades from VC towards JL.
- Turns it's back on upper Vicar Lane.


You can ask qns and submit your views via the website on http://www.eastgateleeds.co.uk/Get-Involved.aspx
 
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