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I know it's such a big what if but I always find myself thinking it.

Do you think it would've ended up a success and Trams become a tourist attraction the way they are in Melbourne or even more so? With lines like Bondi, Bronte,Watsons Bay & Balmoral etc supporting great views it's hard not to think that Sydney would be known for it's Trams had they be retained.

Do you think there would be many extensions by 2013? If so what?
I can imagine they would have linked up the Enfield lines to the rest of the network by now!
 

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Streetwalker
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In all likelihood they would have removed all tram lines north of the harbour and also the inner west simply because these routes travelled on what these days are heavily conjested roads. A lot of people wonder why most of the eastern suburbs routes were dismantled considering most of them had considerable right of way seperate to other traffic. Its been argued that they should have kept the the routes towards the eastern beaches which today would have been a major tourist drawcard on top of a more effect public transport system to all these stupid buses everywhere. Probably the worst crime was that they incinerated hundreds of tramcars that were only several years old and in relatively new condition. Could you imagine the outrage today by the public if we took the same number of buses also relatively new and created a huge bonfire?
 

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I expect Sydney would have enjoyed many of the problems Melbourne had and patronage would have dwindled away to nothing by the early 1990s, only to start enjoying a resurgence by now. Of course the incompetence of various levels of government over time would simply lead to insufficient investment being made in it.
 

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Perpetual Bohemian
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We'd be stuck in unending gridlock. Seriously, La Perouse/Maroubra and Watsons Bay (excluding Kings Cross) were the only lines on roads with reasonable capacity.
Hang on, aren't you looking down the wrong end of the pipe? That'd be a good thing - encourage people to move to public transport. Capacity for what? Number of cars? Roads are for moving people (and goods). Your measurement of road capacity should be in terms of people-movements and the best at that is trams and buses.

By 2000 I'd have expected them to get general traffic off the tram lanes - I think that's about the timescale bus lanes were widely implemented by.

It's not just a matter of the physical retention of the tram system. The best tram systems in the world are those with a century or so of accumulated experience and expertise (thus capitalised corporate memory). The Sydney tramways would have been in a world-leading position in that respect - until about the 1980s when the new managerialism came along, expertise driven out and everything put in the hands of career "managers" and it would have all gone pear-shaped from there (like the railways). Adelaide tramway is a good example of the process.
 

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Well it was dismantled. It's past, it's gone. You might as well start a thread on what you'd do if you won $50 million in Oz Lotto. At least there is a chance, however slim, of that happening.
 

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By 2000 I'd have expected them to get general traffic off the tram lanes - I think that's about the timescale bus lanes were widely implemented by.
They were all on four lanes roads. You can't. You simply can't. It's just like Sydney Rd, but radially on every major arterial road.
 

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Perpetual Bohemian
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They were all on four lanes roads. You can't. You simply can't. It's just like Sydney Rd, but radially on every major arterial road.
Yes you can actually but you have to move parking to side streets/build off-street carparks - a planned strategy for parking and deliveries. There is even a special type of platform (drive-over) for 4 lane roads. For motor traffic the street is effectively a clearway.
 

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why is people getting excited about trams in this city?

I can't believe we're thinking of bringing them back.

This city should be thinking and talking metro.

A bus can do a better job than a tram.
 

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I read that they can only move 9000 passengers per hour.

What happens if 20,000 passenger movements are needed?

Why aren't global cities around the world rolling out this cost saving technology?
 

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Authorised Replicant
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I'd imagine a comparable metro line would be more than three times the light rail line's cost, for only twice the capacity.
 

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I'd imagine a comparable metro line would be more than three times the light rail line's cost, for only twice the capacity.
Only twice the capacity, how do you calculate this?

I have read that metro trains can carry over 1000 passengers and can move a frequencies of one train per minute, this would mean they have a capacity of over 6times that of trams.

It is also hard to measure the effects of the reduction in road surface capacity tram systems have on theses other road based systems.

If trams were really that cost effective why did they start building the heavy rail system in Sydney at all?
 

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Only twice the capacity, how do you calculate this?

I have read that metro trains can carry over 1000 passengers and can move a frequencies of one train per minute, this would mean they have a capacity of over 6times that of trams.

It is also hard to measure the effects of the reduction in road surface capacity tram systems have on theses other road based systems.

If trams were really that cost effective why did they start building the heavy rail system in Sydney at all?
I don't think any of the numbers mentioned here are right.

LR capacity is contingent on what sort of LR we are talking about. Fully separated (with minimal street running in a city centre), largest possible vehicles such as the 7 unit Citardis that visited Melbourne, one per minute, should be able to do 15,000 pax per hour. Many of the typical encroachments you see such as mixed traffic, cross roads, shortage of vehicles or drivers, and unnecessary seating, will reduce this.

A new, purpose built metro should be able to do between 25 to 50,000 pax per direction per hour. Of course, if you spend less on it, you get a lesser result.

Anyway as you all very well know, this is not an argument about tech. It is a political argument. If we were in Singapore it would be purely a planning and technical argument, because the money would be available, and there would be no need to use technical solutions to political problems like stupid pollies, craven bureaucrats and bolshie unions.
 

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I think if the Sydney system had retained trams to the South East along the Anzac Parade corridor, a route from Bondi Junction to Bondi Beach, and potentially the Glebe and Balmain area routes, might have been an excellent basis for more widespread use of trams in areas we are talking about now.

It is all very well wanting King St Newtown trams back, but in the 1960s there was no alternative route for vehicles.

People are talking as if Melbourne retaining every single route was a good idea, and something Sydney should have done. This is not right. Melbourne has some real problematic routes, high inconvenience to motorist and low actual use (at or below bus thresholds) but of course therse routes are in politically sensitive areas.

And retaining these tram routes damages the prospects of using Light Rail in other places where the argument is stronger.
 

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Probably the worst crime was that they incinerated hundreds of tramcars that were only several years old and in relatively new condition. Could you imagine the outrage today by the public if we took the same number of buses also relatively new and created a huge bonfire?
Coming originally from London, where the current mayor did almost exactly above to a fleet of brand new articulated buses to great cheering from the fools who voted for him, I'm not so sure...
 

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Coming originally from London, where the current mayor did almost exactly above to a fleet of brand new articulated buses to great cheering from the fools who voted for him, I'm not so sure...
Which goes to the point, it would be nice to have better quality politicians, but does the population deserve them?
 

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