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What do you think China would be like if Germany, France, Britian, and others never carved the nation up into 'protectorates'? Better or worst off?


I personally feel that the Middle Kingdom would be much better off without the unbathed weiguoren coming to our shores, poisoning our bodies and minds with opium and the disease of progress. The Mandate of Heaven would have arbeitrated a new emperor who would have renewed the land and government with his celestial knowledge and judgement as the Son of Heaven.

Anchored by the five sacred Buddhist mountains and seven mystic peaks of Taoism and binded by Confucian ideals, the Chinese nation did not suffer the war and ravage of the cylindral, fleeting and empheral European nations. (remember, these are the people who gave us WW1,WW2, the crusades, the seventy year's war, and lets not forget the hundreds years war, which actually lasted more than 100 years mind you ;) )


With living architecture built with wood, that seemlessly blended with the landscape. Our architecture are contributions to the original natural world, not subtractions. With no ego, lost of innocence, and appetite for conquest, the Chinese civilization was one of peace, stability, famial piety, delight in the natural and simple, echoing the mantra of "when we all die, no one is richer or poorer, smarter or better than anyone else."


What do you think Monkey?
 

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中華民國
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I believe CONTACT with the West was certainly good. It was a good wake-up call for the Middle Kingdom and make us realize that after hundreds of years of isolation, we are no longer the most advanced and civilized society in the world. The IDEAL situation would've been that China learn the positive things about the West and become a powerful force itself and once again rise to the top.

But of course, China, or rather the emperors at that time didn't take that route...
 

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Fishing
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The westen "come into" accelerated the downfall of corrupted Qing dynasty. It was the CATALYZER to wake up people from closed-cloorism and let us realized that we were no longer the centre of the world.
 

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I wish China can be like Japan, modernizing without being colonzied by western powers, but too bad our Emperors (or should i rather say Empress) were not as wise as Japanese emperor.
 

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Japan is not without western influence. Today, half of their everyday language (in particular, nouns and slang) uses butchered words taken from English because it's seen as "cool" to the young people.
 

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中華民國
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Sen said:
I wish China can be like Japan, modernizing without being colonzied by western powers, but too bad our Emperors (or should i rather say Empress) were not as wise as Japanese emperor.
Aside from what superchan7 said, Japan didn't volunteerly open up to the West. It wasn't until after the U.S. sailed a warship into the Tokyo harbor was Japan forced to open up...

However, China, having been the leader in its region for so long, have grown almost arrogant. So even after losing the Opium War against the British, the Empress used the money to build a modernized navy to build her summer and winter palaces...
 

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sen, not to worry about that, thanks to the western appearance, the corrupt Qing could collapse so fast, or else it would delay the advent of the chinese new age, fortunately, the western influention on chinese culture and life style of that time was so limited that we inherited and maintained most most of excellent chinese culture and tradition, by comparison, the indian lost many many things which couldnt be gotten back ever in around 400 years of colonization. and when Meijirshin (Meiji reformantion) started, Meiji also had to sign a lot of unfair treaties.
 

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不要绝对,要客观地分析;事情并不是非黑即白那样简单.
如果外国人从来也不来中国,中国也不理会外国,不同他们接触,那么分割越久,差异越大,而中国因为自大也不去了解究竟发达国家已经发展到什么地步了,这样中国就得不到外国的更先进的制度和技术.
但是反过来,外国人来到中国,如果只是普通的外交,经商,和平交流,那么就比侵略要好多了.
杀人本身总是不好的,但是如果中国很早就谦虚,不排挤外国人,而同他们进行交流,那么也就不会在被侵略的时候才猛然意识到原来自己的军事科技比不过外国.
 

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Sen said:
I wish China can be like Japan, modernizing without being colonzied by western powers, but too bad our Emperors (or should i rather say Empress) were not as wise as Japanese emperor.

Japan is what it is today thanks to United States help in rebuilding Japan after WW2.
 

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sentosa said:
不要绝对,要客观地分析;事情并不是非黑即白那样简单.
如果外国人从来也不来中国,中国也不理会外国,不同他们接触,那么分割越久,差异越大,而中国因为自大也不去了解究竟发达国家已经发展到什么地步了,这样中国就得不到外国的更先进的制度和技术.
但是反过来,外国人来到中国,如果只是普通的外交,经商,和平交流,那么就比侵略要好多了.
杀人本身总是不好的,但是如果中国很早就谦虚,不排挤外国人,而同他们进行交流,那么也就不会在被侵略的时候才猛然意识到原来自己的军事科技比不过外国.
I totally agree.

Actually I think China could have ended up like Japan if the empirer accepted the suggestions of industrialization and democracy reforms, instead of being prevented by the empress for her own benefits.

It could also have ended up like South Korea, if the Republic government didn't lose the civil war and move to Taiwan...leaving the mainland under devastation of the communist power.
 

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if the West colonized China, China would become another India in Asia. a corrupted democracy after decolonization.

if the West never colonized China, Qing would survive some more decades until communists overthrew it.
 

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中華民國
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I think there are two major misconceptions here...

1.) Japan never VOLUNTEERLY embrace the West. Japan was literally force-opened by the U.S. when warships entered the Tokyo harbor. So Japan wasn't this open-minded nation that some of you might think...

2.) As much as I am loyal to the KMT, as you can see by my avatar, I don't believe China with ROC under the leadership of Jiang Jieshi would've been much better than China with PRC under the leadership of Mao Zedong.

Around the time of the Chinese civil war, the ROC was anything but stable and uncorrupt. After over 200 years of chaos and devastation caused by both foreign and domestic issues, what China needed the most was stability, and the communists brought it (although there were some mistakes made), something the KMT wasn't able to do at the time. Now if Dr. Sun Yatsen didn't pass away and was still leading the KMT/ROC, things probably would've been different. But under Jiang Jieshi's rule, there's no way ROC would've been a powerful nation today.
 

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Awesomeness
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Trade was forced open by US warships. Industrialization and the reforms by the emperor were most certainly not forced.
 

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Zorobabel said:
Trade was forced open by US warships. Industrialization and the reforms by the emperor were most certainly not forced.
Industrialization and reforms came AFTER trade. Do you honestly think Japan would've industrialized and reformed if trade was NOT forced open and therefore allowing contact between West and Japan? :sleepy:
 

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ultimately it depends on the individual. The Tokugawa Shogunate was resistant to foreign influence. But after it was overthrown and Emperor Meiji grabbed the power himself, Japan began its modernisation to become a industrial power. The Empreror Guangxu of China was also a reformist, but unfortunately Empress Cixi has all the power and she's very conservative.

What amazes me however, it's the Japan's ability to always learn from other countries, This can be seen by large number of loan words from Chinese, Portuguese, German and English in Japanese language.
 

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Pangu said:
Industrialization and reforms came AFTER trade. Do you honestly think Japan would've industrialized and reformed if trade was NOT forced open and therefore allowing contact between West and Japan? :sleepy:
So, if I understand this correctly, you are honestly suggesting that the reforms under Mutsuhito were forced upon Japan by the West?
 

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By the way, a good study some time would be of Hong Rengan (洪仁玕). He was the de-facto "prime minister" of the Taiping rebellion administration, and he was by the year 1859 pushing for interesting industrial reforms. This is why both the ROC and PRC claimed inspiration from him.
 

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Zorobabel said:
So, if I understand this correctly, you are honestly suggesting that the reforms under Mutsuhito were forced upon Japan by the West?
All I'm saying is, if Japan wasn't forced open by the U.S. for trade or otherwise, Japan wouldn't have volunteerly opened themselves up to the West.

People seem to incorrectly think Japan automatically embraced the West with an open-mind the moment they made contact...
 

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Pangu said:
I think there are two major misconceptions here...

1.) Japan never VOLUNTEERLY embrace the West. Japan was literally force-opened by the U.S. when warships entered the Tokyo harbor. So Japan wasn't this open-minded nation that some of you might think...

2.) As much as I am loyal to the KMT, as you can see by my avatar, I don't believe China with ROC under the leadership of Jiang Jieshi would've been much better than China with PRC under the leadership of Mao Zedong.

Around the time of the Chinese civil war, the ROC was anything but stable and uncorrupt. After over 200 years of chaos and devastation caused by both foreign and domestic issues, what China needed the most was stability, and the communists brought it (although there were some mistakes made), something the KMT wasn't able to do at the time. Now if Dr. Sun Yatsen didn't pass away and was still leading the KMT/ROC, things probably would've been different. But under Jiang Jieshi's rule, there's no way ROC would've been a powerful nation today.
Chiang Kai-shek and Mao Zedong are both crap~~>"<
國父真的太偉大了>w<"~~~~~~
 
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