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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
All the time I see people throwing figures around here regarding city size. Or a cities Population.

You can see MSA population; you will see the city proper population etc.

When people write that Hartford, the city I live "in" has a population of 128k or whatever I cringe. I have read "it has a very nice skyline for a city of only 128k"

Come on now people!!

We are Urban Enthusiasts here. We should know that Hartford does not end Founders Bridge to the East, or at Prospect Ave to the West.

We should know that New York does not end at the Hudson River and that Oakland is part of San Francisco.

Can we as the members here at Skyscraper city agree to be intelligent about this?

I can see using the population of the legal boundaries of a city to make a point about changes happening within its boarders. I cannot see the sense in using statistics to mislead the reality.

Mark Twain once wrote "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

Am I trying to say that places like Newark New Jersey are just part of NYC? No it’s much more complicated then that. Newark is a suburb of NYC for sure, but it is also a central Suburban hub. Many communities around Newark center their existence on Newark, but this sphere of influence is also within the sphere of NYC.

MSA is the best means we have available to list a cities population.
Sure it is flawed, but it’s a fairly unbiased system, and something everyone has access to.

Yeah my disjointed rant is done. now we shall discuss
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Really? Its from his Autobiography.

Hell I'm not a lit expert, but the point is the same.

EDIT

OK so I looked this guy up and you are correct. but the phrase is attributed to twain as "it was made popular by Twain in North America"

Thanks for making me learn
 

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well, it's very difficult, because sometimes the statistics of a city include its entire metro area, even when it extends into other states, and in other places, such as PA and NJ namley, cities have 5 billion year old municipal boundaries that still serve as a basis by which we tell that cities population. not everywhere is consistent is what im saying, so i don't blame people who go on google, look up the population size and then claim such things as you so accuratly exampled
 

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I think the MSA CSA argument is valid as in many cases the FED is way off in saying some places are as big or small as they really are. To me its not something you can just say yes here is a line and blahh blahh blahhh. To understand an area (Which the FED can't do) it would take time, educated and intelligent people with an open mind to view a 'real' metro.

Just my thoughts on it.
 

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thats true with wilmington, delaware too. our city population is around 73,000 but thats only within the 11 mile square radius of the city. everyone knows the city of wilmington extends from the northern tip of delaware at brandywine town center all the way to the kirkwood highway library.
here's a map of the total wilmington area in red, and the actual city of wilmington in blue.
 

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There are 400,000 people directly across the Canadian Boarder from Buffalo that are never included in any counts because they are in a different country. Another part of Buffalo's metro is lopped off because it extends into a county that the Feds seemed to be part of Rochester. Some Canadians live closer to the City of Buffalo than do some of the people living in its official American metro area.
 

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There are 400,000 people directly across the Canadian Boarder from Buffalo that are never included in any counts because they are in a different country. Another part of Buffalo's metro is lopped off because it extends into a county that the Feds seemed to be part of Rochester. Some Canadians live closer to the City of Buffalo than do some of the people living in its official American metro area.
some pretty good points here I'd say.

Steel how many are living across from Detroit?
 

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i would disagree about newark being a suburb of new york. it's tied to new york but has its own thing going on unlike jersey city where many of its residents work in new york.
 

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i would disagree about newark being a suburb of new york. it's tied to new york but has its own thing going on unlike jersey city where many of its residents work in new york.
Newark NJ, sounds just like Wilmington is comparison to Philadelphia. I think Wilmington is even more so on it's own because Wilmington is the cultural center of the state of Delaware, whereas New Jersy has several cities that can serve as regional cultural centers. Wilmington always gets lumped into the Philadelphia metro are as if it's no different than Norristown or Conshohocken or Media. Delaware really doesn't have too much of an attachment to Philadelphia.
 

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I sometimes laugh when people say that Hartford is small.

Granted, it isn't big. But it isn't small by any definition unless you count ONLY the city itself, which is small in area and population with only 125k.

The Hartford area overall has 1.3 million now, and since Providence has been eaten up by Boston's metro, we are bigger than any metro in the NE with exception of the big 4 (NY, BalWash, Boston, Philly) and Pittsburgh.

If Springfield is counted, we have almost 2 million.
 

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I sometimes laugh when people say that Hartford is small.

Granted, it isn't big. But it isn't small by any definition unless you count ONLY the city itself, which is small in area and population with only 125k.

The Hartford area overall has 1.3 million now, and since Providence has been eaten up by Boston's metro, we are bigger than any metro in the NE with exception of the big 4 (NY, BalWash, Boston, Philly) and Pittsburgh.

If Springfield is counted, we have almost 2 million.
Except...as I noted...if you included Buffalo's nearby Canadians it would be almost 1.6M:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Steel do those canadians commute into and work in Buffalo?

or do more Buffaloians commute to the Falls area for work?

or do they go to Toronto or Hamilton etc.

See, just because people live close they are not part of a metro area. I think There are several metro areas that overlap.

Often times sports teams make a great example for where boarders lie.

Are the people in Niagra maple leafs fans or Sabres fans? Bill or Argos

Buffalo is in a strange location for sure.
 

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Just a guess....

Sports team fanbases range from probably nearly 100% in Ft Erie to maybe 10-20% in Toronto (?). Football - that's tough as they're different leagues. I think as far as NFL goes, the Bills have a substantial following in most of southern Ontario. I actually saw several people wearing Bills apparel when I was in Toronto last week, and they couldn't all have been tourists (mid-day weekday).
 

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Steel do those canadians commute into and work in Buffalo?

or do more Buffaloians commute to the Falls area for work?

or do they go to Toronto or Hamilton etc.

See, just because people live close they are not part of a metro area. I think There are several metro areas that overlap.

Often times sports teams make a great example for where boarders lie.

Are the people in Niagra maple leafs fans or Sabres fans? Bill or Argos

Buffalo is in a strange location for sure.
Well the economies don't over lap as much as if there was no border but there is a lot of cross border commerce. Buffalo shopping centers rely heavily on Canadians and that can be seen in the parking lots. Buffalo (and Detroit) congressional representatives have been way out front as being against the new pass port rules because they know how much trouble and economic damage it will do. Most of the Lake Erie Cottages on the Canadian side are owned by people in Buffalo. St. Cats businesses advertise in Buffalo publications. Many Canadians hold season ticks to Sabres but this might be as much about the high price of Leafs tickets as anything else.

In the end the Buffalo St. Catherines Area is a fairly compact area of 1.6 Million people with an international boarder down the middle. Hamilton is not too much further with another 700K but it is pulled toward Toronto. The area from Buffalo all the way to Toronto is now completely connected by sprawl and cities. I am not sure how many people 8M-9M-10M?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Buffalo has lost a great many jobs while the Niagara falls area has gained a great deal. This makes Niagara falls more important and Buffalo less important. I can see it being said that Niagara falls has a pull on S. Ontario up to a point where Hamilton has a stronger pull, but I do not see that pull being attributed to Buffalo. Buffalo is truely the main city to all those living S and West, but to those in the North end of Buffalo, or the Southern tip of Ontario all roads lead to Niagara.

There is no way in hell that Rochester is part of Buffalo, nor is Hamilton. But that is not to take down Buffalo, just a reality.

Just as Springfield is not part of Hartford.
Springfield is very much intertwined with Hartford however, and if Hartford were to continue to develop while Springfield Stagnates it would appear as more of a satalite than its own distinct city.
 

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Buffalo has lost a great many jobs while the Niagara falls area has gained a great deal.
Yeah, on the Canadian side...

Of course it's not just vs. WNY; Canada's kicking all our asses in just about every department nowadays.
 

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Just as Springfield is not part of Hartford.
Springfield is very much intertwined with Hartford however, and if Hartford were to continue to develop while Springfield Stagnates it would appear as more of a satalite than its own distinct city.
Well, Springfield is it's own metro but sharing channels, newspapers (I've seen Courant up there a few times), an airport, and other things. But I'm sure you know that, I'm just telling some that aren't aware of the two cities closeness...

The two are twin cities, and since their suburbs mesh together (going up I-91, you don't even know where Springfield's influence begins, probably at Enfield), it makes little sense to keep Springfield apart while the Hartford metro gets places like Old Saybrook and even Putnam all the way in the Quiet Corner that have little to do with Hartford.

Since they started this county thing, it's because places like Cromwell and Middletown are part of the metro made places like Old Saybrook on the other side of the county, on the Long Island Sound part of the Hartford area.

It's all about commuting, not much people here go up to Springfield, and not much people there go down to Hartford. But as people figure out how cheap it is up there, and when this commuter rail makes it easier to commute, the seperation won't stay for long.

Hartford and Springfield are closer to each other in distance than Washington and Baltimore, or Dallas and Fort Worth. Even if the Census doesn't want to think so, they are in reality.
 
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