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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greetings all,

Belakangan ini saya mikir-mikir di mana letak kesalahan negara kita sehingga di abad 21 ini negara kita masih terbelakang dan miskin. Prospek menjadi negara yang kuat, dihormati, dan makmur sampai sekarang cuma impian, nggak tahu kapan bakal tercapai. Padahal kalau dipikir-pikir, potensi Indonesia besar sekali. Jumlah penduduk, luas daerah, luas lautan, diversity, letak strategis, tanah subur, kekayaan mineral, migas, etc, just to mention a few. Mestinya dengan portfolio macam begitu, Indonesia nggak hanya menjadi negara dunia ketiga amburadul dengan utang bertumpuk tumpuk kayak sekarang.

Kita sudah merdeka 60 tahun, tapi pencapaian kita kalah jauh dengan negara negara lain yang juga awut-awutan pasca perang dunia 2 macam Jepang, Jerman, Singapore, dan Korea Selatan. So, I don't think we can blame world war 2 for our miserable performance today. Mungkin karena kita lama dijajah bangsa asing? Atau gara gara lost decades following WW2 under Bung Karno? 20 tahun ekonomi nggak maju, perang sana sini lawan separatisme, main-main sama komunisme, etc. Atau 30 tahun jaman Suharto? 30 tahun ekonomi dikembangkan tapi dengan KKN, jadi bukannya meniru success recipe ekonomi Jepang dan Singapore di mana bisnis punya aturan main yang jelas dan bersih, malahan bikin aturan main sendiri dengan asumsi bahwa ekonomi yang dibangun dengan KKN bisa sukses dan maju? Atau jangan-jangan western neo-colonialism, seperti yang dikoar-koarkan pejabat ultranasionalis nggak tahu malu di Indonesia, di mana negara negara barat berusaha untuk menekan Indonesia?

Sometimes I wonder if we would have been better off being separate small states. Indonesia spends so much time, energy, and attention just to make sure the country sticks together. The time, energy, and attention could have been devoted for improving the economy and quality of life. OK, enough rambling I guess, I want to know what you think about this.
 

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TheTramp said:
Greetings all,

Belakangan ini saya mikir-mikir di mana letak kesalahan negara kita sehingga di abad 21 ini negara kita masih terbelakang dan miskin. Prospek menjadi negara yang kuat, dihormati, dan makmur sampai sekarang cuma impian, nggak tahu kapan bakal tercapai. Padahal kalau dipikir-pikir, potensi Indonesia besar sekali. Jumlah penduduk, luas daerah, luas lautan, diversity, letak strategis, tanah subur, kekayaan mineral, migas, etc, just to mention a few. Mestinya dengan portfolio macam begitu, Indonesia nggak hanya menjadi negara dunia ketiga amburadul dengan utang bertumpuk tumpuk kayak sekarang.

Kita sudah merdeka 60 tahun, tapi pencapaian kita kalah jauh dengan negara negara lain yang juga awut-awutan pasca perang dunia 2 macam Jepang, Jerman, Singapore, dan Korea Selatan. So, I don't think we can blame world war 2 for our miserable performance today. Mungkin karena kita lama dijajah bangsa asing? Atau gara gara lost decades following WW2 under Bung Karno? 20 tahun ekonomi nggak maju, perang sana sini lawan separatisme, main-main sama komunisme, etc. Atau 30 tahun jaman Suharto? 30 tahun ekonomi dikembangkan tapi dengan KKN, jadi bukannya meniru success recipe ekonomi Jepang dan Singapore di mana bisnis punya aturan main yang jelas dan bersih, malahan bikin aturan main sendiri dengan asumsi bahwa ekonomi yang dibangun dengan KKN bisa sukses dan maju? Atau jangan-jangan western neo-colonialism, seperti yang dikoar-koarkan pejabat ultranasionalis nggak tahu malu di Indonesia, di mana negara negara barat berusaha untuk menekan Indonesia?

Sometimes I wonder if we would have been better off being separate small states. Indonesia spends so much time, energy, and attention just to make sure the country sticks together. The time, energy, and attention could have been devoted for improving the economy and quality of life. OK, enough rambling I guess, I want to know what you think about this.
I don't know what to start ....
It is very very complex matter ... link one to another ...

I just can say one thing among those many many complex things link one to another :-((

" Indonesian sees thing know by standard of Money ... or Wealth .....
People said to be succeed if they have 3 houses 3 cars 3 yathcs 3 apartment ... etc etc .... not seen by what their "Achievement".

A doctor .... seen as a successful doctor if He has 3 houses, 3 cars, 4 apartments ....NOT SEEN BY HOW GOOD THEY THREAT PATIENTS

A Lecture .... same story

A government employee ... Same story

Scientist ... Same story

Policemen ...... Army ..... Judge ... Lawyer .... Artist .....

Almost everyone .....

Guys .. this make me cry .......

Then what .... every values are valued by things ( money. house. car )
That make Corruption ......
Corruption together .... we call it Korupsi Berjama'ah ....

Teacher wants to get much money ... not try to get students clever
DOctor wants to get much money ... not trying to honestly do a noble job as a doctor
Scientist ...
Lawyer ..
Gov. EMployee ....
all have the same attitude .....

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

But stil there are few good man ... :)
that we can give our hope for the next generation ...
Who doens't value everything using wealth standard .... but .... "Achievement" ...



I believe though we can change ... just follow from Aa Gym
We All ( 3M )
- Mulai dari yang Kecil ( starting from every small things )
- Mulai dari diri sendiri ( starting from ourselves )
- Mulai Saat ini ( starting now )
 

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for me of course the government and the people
the government do corruption (korupsi) which is bad
even it is published in the straits time singapore said jakarta most corrupt city in asia
the government (pelit/budget) did not want to spent the money they have for organise the country instead they keep the money for themselves

the people like freedom if they did not like anything they just do protest
also they people did not cooperate with the government
they take things for granted
 

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macgyver said:
I don't know what to start ....
It is very very complex matter ... link one to another ...

I just can say one thing among those many many complex things link one to another :-((

" Indonesian sees thing know by standard of Money ... or Wealth .....
People said to be succeed if they have 3 houses 3 cars 3 yathcs 3 apartment ... etc etc .... not seen by what their "Achievement".

A doctor .... seen as a successful doctor if He has 3 houses, 3 cars, 4 apartments ....NOT SEEN BY HOW GOOD THEY THREAT PATIENTS

A Lecture .... same story

A government employee ... Same story

Scientist ... Same story

Policemen ...... Army ..... Judge ... Lawyer .... Artist .....

Almost everyone .....

Guys .. this make me cry .......

Then what .... every values are valued by things ( money. house. car )
That make Corruption ......
Corruption together .... we call it Korupsi Berjama'ah ....

Teacher wants to get much money ... not try to get students clever
DOctor wants to get much money ... not trying to honestly do a noble job as a doctor
Scientist ...
Lawyer ..
Gov. EMployee ....
all have the same attitude .....

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

But stil there are few good man ... :)
that we can give our hope for the next generation ...
Who doens't value everything using wealth standard .... but .... "Achievement" ...



I believe though we can change ... just follow from Aa Gym
We All ( 3M )
- Mulai dari yang Kecil ( starting from every small things )
- Mulai dari diri sendiri ( starting from ourselves )
- Mulai Saat ini ( starting now )
AGREE WITH YOU!!!!
 

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THE POLICE SOME MORE THEY ACT COOL (TRAFFIC POLICE)
SUCH AS AKTING SOK GALAK SAID THAT WE DO SOMETHING WRONG LAH BLA BLA....(ACTUALLY THEY WANT MONEY)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Well, actually, nggak salah sih kalau orang kepingin punya uang. Cuma kan kalau caranya nggak jujur itu yang bikin nggak benar. See, the tendency in Indonesia is to focus on the results and not the process. Makanya terus korupsi sana sini, nggak bayar pajak. Pikirnya well ngapain bayar pajak, entar juga di embezzle sama pejabat. Jadinya tumbuh budaya take-take-take, tapi nggak mau give, every man for himself, nggak ada semangat kolektivitas membangun masyarakat yang lebih baik, nggak ada kesadaran hukum juga.
Tapi ini cuma generalization, banyak juga yang nggak seperti itu. Tapi sudah telanjur Indonesia mirip seperti mismanaged corportion.
 

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there's no free lunch
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what went wrong:

1) people had no control on what government was doing.
When we protested, the next day we're history.

2) limited access to information.
Media was shut-down for any reason the government could come up with. See Tempo, Sinar Harapan etc

3) Development was and is too much consentrated in Java island. This create big gap between province to province. When the rich is too rich and the poor so much poor, one side can abuse the others, easily.

I can't come up with point 4 and beyond....

However we should be grateful that we still exist as a Nation, no matter how hard what we've been through. And the hope is there, we better grab it right away and never lose it.

tata
 

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just compare singapore before independence/after independence not much different with jakarta NOW!

just hope one day jakarta will be like singapore/other major asia cities such as shanghai
 

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Fir3blaze
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TheTramp said:
Well, actually, nggak salah sih kalau orang kepingin punya uang. Cuma kan kalau caranya nggak jujur itu yang bikin nggak benar. See, the tendency in Indonesia is to focus on the results and not the process. Makanya terus korupsi sana sini, nggak bayar pajak. Pikirnya well ngapain bayar pajak, entar juga di embezzle sama pejabat. Jadinya tumbuh budaya take-take-take, tapi nggak mau give, every man for himself, nggak ada semangat kolektivitas membangun masyarakat yang lebih baik, nggak ada kesadaran hukum juga.
Tapi ini cuma generalization, banyak juga yang nggak seperti itu. Tapi sudah telanjur Indonesia mirip seperti mismanaged corportion.
Ahh...I agree with TheTramp. Nggak ada salahnya mau punya uang, but we have to be honest. We all want to be rich, dont we? The problem is that some (many) people believe that they can get richer without working harder. This is bullshi*t, we all know. But they use their positions to achieve this...(embezzling money, extorting, etc.). It is sickening, but the good thing is that many of us are sick enough of what is going on, that i hope this will change in future.

I often heard complaints from fellow Indonesians that what makes we lag behind our neighbors is that Indonesians are lazy (or stupid). I would disagree. The problem of "laziness" or corruption is not a problem only suffered in Indonesia. Even in Singapore (who are supposedly one of the "cleanest" society in the world), there are arrests made for corruption related crimes from time to time. These were committed by Singaporeans, mostly. So..this shows that humans would opt for the easy way out if it was available to them. This is where the government comes in and draw the line, what can be done and what cannot be done.

I think that Singapore today is not much different from say Jakarta in terms of living condition. As we know it, Singapore's edge over Jakarta is cleanliness, public order, and safety. This is not very hard to achieve IMHO. With a determined governor, i believe that Jakarta can achieve relatively the same standard in about 5 years time (excluding building same amount of HDB flats).
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Singapore's true edge over Indonesia cannot be observed in the rich class but rather the poor one. Kalau yang kaya sih sama aja, naik mobil, pakai baju bagus, punya rumah, etc etc. Tapi kalau yang "kelas bawah" itu yang lain. Di Jakarta street children dan slum di bantaran sungai itu sudah jadi fenomena tersendiri. Di Singapore juga banyak yang miskin tapi average quality of life mereka di atas mereka yang di Jakarta. Coba aja bandingin PKL Jakarta dengan PKL Singapore. Ini salah satu penyebab kenapa safety dan public order di Jakarta kalah dari Singapore.

Personally I would prefer if Jakarta had less supertall shiny buildings and less konglomerats, but more traffic and public order, more equality, less crime (less premans, pak ogahs, tukang todongs, jambrets, dan sebangsanya), cleaner streets and rivers, and better public transport. But that's just me, dream dream dream.....

Tapi downsidenya jadi nggak bisa sombong sombong di forum ini, soalnya kita jadi nggak punya banyak gedung di CBD Thamrin-Sudirman.....:(
 

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Fir3blaze
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Like what your signature says "SALUS POPULI, SUPREMA LEX" or "Safety of the poeple is the supreme law". How to help the lower class in the economic hierarchy here in Indonesia is to first get rid of the parasites: i.e. premans, pak ogahs, tukang todongs, jambrets, dan sebangsanya. This is important because these people live off others while doing work that do not add value to the society, and in the process they squeeze money out of those who earn money through legitimate work like PKLs. I heard that in some places, the "rent" paid by PKL to oknums and mafias amount to Rp 1 Million per m2 per month. That is a hell lot of money in a society where entry level government official earns less than 1 million. Worse of all, the money is normally spent on other illegal activities like drugs, gambling, etc. which by the way also do not add to the economy.

If I can use the analogy of a garden, right now in Indonesia the weeds are everywhere and are eating up too much nutrients from the soil. Only when the weeds are removed will we see flowers blossoming in our garden. It's not too hard to achieve, we just need a good (and dedicated) farmer.
 

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Another thing that went wrong is the the salary many civil servants gets. It is ridiculous to assume that we could get great teachers when we pay them peanuts. It is ridiculous to assume that any of them will be honest when the salary the get barely pay the bills. it's the same with many civil servants. Even high profile positions (such as diplomat) barely make enough when they start out and get just enough when they get up in the ranking. It's time to pay these civil servant the salary that they deserve (from the police to the diplomats). As they say, we get what we pay for.
 

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Comparing a city-state like Singapore to Jakarta seems like a bad comparison to me. Think about China; it was unified in 1928, and 60 years after (1988) if you would have compared a mainland city to Hong Kong you would've seen a vast disparity between the two. Now, we can see what has happened in cities like Shanghai and Shenzhen. Just 15 years of good economic growth has transformed everyone's image of that country, but it isn't just limited to China. Nations like France, Germany, and the UK at one time were all made up of many different ethnic groups. In larger nations things take time to develop and merge, but I think in the end these larger countries will come out on top in various aspects. Just my two cents.
 

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A lot of factors...main one being 30 years of mismanagement by New Order government, breeding a culture of corruption, self-interest/opportunism and complacency...A lot of Indonesians think that because we're so rich in terms of natural resources, we are destined to be prosperous...but this is the wrong mentality...all nations must work hard to achieve a certain level of prosperity, and it all starts with individuals. Also, education. I think this is one of the reasons why , whilst INdonesia grew economically 5-7% for 30 years, the quality of our human resources remain low because development was short sighted and ppl didnt realise the importance of education.
 
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