Yearning towards Scotland

Mpatte said:

Good afternoon everyone. I am an American living in Seattle, Washington, a city that i love. But lately i'm getting to the point that the political discourse and general atmosphere of agressive stupidity in the U.S. is making me want to find a new country, at least for a little while. I've been eyeing Edinburgh as what seems to me to be a good fit. I love cities, as well as closeby countryside, I am a writer and i love reading, and i am a professional retail merchant planner. Any thoughts for someone possible moving fro mthe states to your beautiful city?

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Hi there. Edinburgh is a wonderful place to live and work. I've lived in a few different places, including the US, and there's nowhere quite like it. Edinburgh is one of the world's most beautiful cities and regularly comes top for quality of life in UK. It is compact, with great public transport, and you are probably never more than a 15-20 minutes drive from the surrounding countryside, with hills and beaches on your doorstep, and only a few hours drive from the most stunning scenery in Scotland. The city is a cultural powerhouse, hosting the world's largest and most influential arts festival, and a great place to be a writer - named UNESCO's first City of Literature, in recognition of its thriving literary and publishing scene. Retail is one area where Edinburgh perhaps doesn't fair so well, at least compared to Glasgow, which is second only to London as a retail centre, though Glasgow and Edinburgh are only fifty miles apart and plenty of folk commute between the two. This site might be helpful.

I think at least one of our regular contributors on the forum, ken2000ac, is originally from the States and has lived here for a wee while (check out Kenny's amazing Flickr account to see how stunning Edinburgh can look), so he might be well placed to give you some good insight, and I'm sure some of the rest of us would be happy to answer any specific questions.

Unfortunately I'm equipped to answer these questions, as I'm in the middle of renewing my visa.

One route is to enter as a student and pay American rates for university. Usually this visa ranges from 1-4 years. This is expensive and none of your time here as a student will count towards your right to remain. Additionally, graduating from university here won't necessarily assist you in acquiring employment here.

Americans are not EU or Swiss and therefore it is difficult to move here with a view to remain any length of time longer than 6 months. We have no special privileges. Our biggest hurdle is employment. If you can secure a UK company to employ you or transfer you here, then at least you may be able to secure a letter of sponsorship. This isn't easy to acquire. Once this is achieved, you'll need to pass the points-based system that ensures you'll be able to work here without relying on public funds (welfare). If all of that is in order, it'll be up to your individual border agent to approve your visa. Usually a visa of this nature is up to three years. One needs to be here at least five in order to qualify for further right to remain.

One needs to be dedicated to the venture of leaving America. It's worth it, but it's not as romantic and simple as jumping on a plane.

Thank you very much for the feedback.

Ken, i have a BA in History and several years of experiance in a professional capacity in Retail Planning and Merchandising, so hopefully that would help me in my quest for a visa. It sounds like i might want to look first at where clothing companies are headquarters, such as Glasgow, London or Leeds, for an initial move. I did a little bit of time in banking as well, which i understand is a big thing in Edinburgh. I hated banking in the states because of how the companies were run, but i might not mind it there depending on how it is handled.

A question for you Ken. When i look at leaving the States for a time, if not forever, it is due to the anti-intellectual vein in our culture, as well as a bit too much religion in politics and public, and corporate rights and profits over the rights of the individual. I also hate that in the US wealth and virtue are the same thing. Do you find that some of those are the same in Scotland, or does the culture there seem to be better?

Mpatte said:

A question for you Ken. When i look at leaving the States for a time, if not forever, it is due to the anti-intellectual vein in our culture, as well as a bit too much religion in politics and public, and corporate rights and profits over the rights of the individual. I also hate that in the US wealth and virtue are the same thing. Do you find that some of those are the same in Scotland, or does the culture there seem to be better?

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I think at least in those regards, Scotland and the US are pretty much polar opposites. Politics and public life are essentially religion-free zones here and, despite being arguably the birthplace of modern capitalism, the attitudes towards wealth and self-worth are very different than in the US with a prevalent sense of egalitarianism.

As someone who is from Scotland, and now lives in the Oregon, (not far the OP), I'll add my 2 cents.

Scotland is actually not totally dissimilar from the Pacific Northwest. The climate is comparable, although the summers are a lot less warm in Scotland. If you value the kind of urban environment you find in the denser parts of Seattle, such as Capitol Hill, you'll like Scotland's cities. Edinburgh and Glasgow are both much older cities, and obviously look nothing like Seattle, but there are certain similarities - walkable streets with retail on the ground level of mid rise buildings, good public transport, etc.

As far as politics go, Scotland is again pretty similar on social issues to the Pacific Northwest (which is the least religious region of the US). On economic issues, Scotland is somewhat to the left of anywhere in America. (Or England, for that matter.) As a point of reference, the Scottish Parliament elects 129 members, and only 15 of those are from the Conservative Party. The rest represent left-of-centre parties. So if you're looking for somewhere more left leaning, that still speaks English, there's probably not a better place than Scotland.

All that said, as ken2000ac says, it's a nightmare trying to live in Scotland if you're not from another European country. Scotland is (at least for now) part of the UK, and the UK has a very tough immigration policy, despite what certain newspapers might have you believe. I have a good friend from Japan, who has lived in the UK since she was a teenager. Despite having degrees from the University of Edinburgh, and the Glasgow School of Art, as well as a good, stable job, it's a constant battle for her to remain in the UK. I have literally seen her in tears, convinced she was going to have to leave the country she's lived in more than half her life.

looking at the Visa requierments makes me think that it is almost impossible for me the move to Scotland. I have a feeling that it would be hard to get Crombie to sponsor me, and harder to convince the government that my skills were unique an impossible to duplicate. Maybe if i went back to school and became a chemical engineer, but that is quite a long process in and of itself. Hoe dejecting.

Mpatte said:

A question for you Ken. When i look at leaving the States for a time, if not forever, it is due to the anti-intellectual vein in our culture, as well as a bit too much religion in politics and public, and corporate rights and profits over the rights of the individual. I also hate that in the US wealth and virtue are the same thing. Do you find that some of those are the same in Scotland, or does the culture there seem to be better?

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Like these others have shared, yes it is very different here in attitude and culture. Value for quality of life is high, human dignity is cherished in public policy (except immigration perhaps!!! :lol: ), privacy is enhanced: religion and politics aren't intrusive. Can you imagine never being asked your political stance?! People aren't labeled, judgmental attitudes are generally low, and there is higher diversity. There is no "American Dream": wealth isn't chased at all costs and the poor aren't despised. There is still consumerism, but I see people prioritize life experience over material objects. UK law is humane: food is highly regulated and processing restricted (compared to the FDA). The healthcare system is utterly brilliant (I could write a love letter to the NHS). Even the legality of how animals are kept before and during slaughter is strikingly contrasted with the brutality of the US.

I haven't even touched on the obvious proximity to traveling and experiencing the rest of the world... Now I'm rambling, probably making it sound like utopia...

Funny enough, I'm a clergyman. One of the big reasons I wish to remain is that I despise the religious culture in America. It is much different here and far more liberating.

Kenspeckle said:

I think at least in those regards, Scotland and the US are pretty much polar opposites. Politics and public life are essentially religion-free zones here and, despite being arguably the birthplace of modern capitalism, the attitudes towards wealth and self-worth are very different than in the US with a prevalent sense of egalitarianism.

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Yes. It's gloriously different. You might be surprised how difficult it is to communicate any understanding of these attitudes to my American friends and family: for them, unfortunately, they are strange concepts.

maccoinnich said:

All that said, as ken2000ac says, it's a nightmare trying to live in Scotland if you're not from another European country. Scotland is (at least for now) part of the UK, and the UK has a very tough immigration policy, despite what certain newspapers might have you believe. I have a good friend from Japan, who has lived in the UK since she was a teenager. Despite having degrees from the University of Edinburgh, and the Glasgow School of Art, as well as a good, stable job, it's a constant battle for her to remain in the UK. I have literally seen her in tears, convinced she was going to have to leave the country she's lived in more than half her life.

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It really is and I'm glad you said so. I sympathize with your friend. Most locals don't appreciate this, unfortunately, but I'm fighting an uphill battle to remain. I've made it my home.

Thank you guys for your feedback. It sounds just like what i am looking for, and seems almost impossible to achive. Isn't that just the American dream? I've given some thought to grad school, and i think i will take into consideration the shortage skills in the UK, or perhaps going to Universtiy there, though that seems very expensive.

ken2000ac said:

Yes. It's gloriously different. You might be surprised how difficult it is to communicate any understanding of these attitudes to my American friends and family: for them, unfortunately, they are strange concepts.

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I think there's a lot of truth in that. From this side of the Atlantic we get so much American film, TV and popular culture in general that it's easy to think that we understand Americans and that we're not that different really. But then in conversation with some of your countrymen if the conversation touches on certain subjects the difference in cultures can be very striking.

If nothing else maybe i can get a nice long vacation there this summer. I am a little afraid that i am going to fall in love and dash myself to pieces against the unfeeling rocks of bureaucracy, but i guess i must take that chance.

How likely are you folks to gain independance? With luck, if you do, the laws might just change.

Mpatte said:

If nothing else maybe i can get a nice long vacation there this summer. I am a little afraid that i am going to fall in love and dash myself to pieces against the unfeeling rocks of bureaucracy, but i guess i must take that chance.

How likely are you folks to gain independance? With luck, if you do, the laws might just change.

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Bit of a contentious subject that one, people on both sides have strong opinions and online discussions can quickly turn pretty bad-tempered so probably best if we just don't poke that with a stick here.

Here's a poll of polls, there's a 280-page Scottish Politics thread within the Scottish forum and a 1180-page independence thread in the UK skybar if you really want to read about it.

Mpatte said:

Not to beat this dead horse, but how's independence looking to you folks?

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By the way, I want to make it clear that back in April I wasn't trying to say you shouldn't mention the subject, just that there were already quite busy threads both in the Scottish forum and the UK Skybar and it might be best to discuss it in one of those. The Edinburgh sub-forum was only created last October and there's still not too many regular posters and I thought the last thing we needed was us all falling out over the referendum.

For what it's worth, the Scottish Politics thread is now up to page 321 and the independence thread in the UK Skybar has reached 1796 pages.

There are passionate arguments on both sides and whichever way the vote goes on Thursday just under half the population are going to be pretty unhappy on Friday.

Personally I think a close No vote could end up being a pretty great result not just for Scotland but the rest of the UK too if it leads to some proper constitutional reform UK-wide, but I think anyone who claims to know what the result is going to be is kidding themselves - it looks too close to call.

I quite understand, and i took no offense. I am just interested due to things like my history degree, how it will affect political science, and the hope that it will make it easier for me to get a work permit as one of your politicians mentioned. I'll browse around the politics thread as well to gauge, i am just rather excited even though i hardly have or should have a say in the matter. Maybe there is just something romantic to me in my historical homeland getting independence. Plus I'm pretty sure my ancestors were Jacobites that fled to the New World...

Regardless of the vote, the referendum has been a positive experience for Scotland. I live in a bit of a Glasgow bubble (I'll admit it), but I did visit Edinburgh at the weekend. Both cities are absolutely full of energy and life in the debate. Never seen such a colourful September. Again, it's still a touchy subject on here (I would strongly recommend you AVOID the Independence thread in the Skybar). Passions run high, especially as we go to the polling stations on Thursday.

If you would like some more information on the matter, feel free to drop me a PM

Back to the topic anyway, I've always fancied trying out the Pacific North West as a place to live, I guess I need a break from Glasgow for a while. It's a fantastic city we have here (and Edinburgh isn't half bad either, plus it's a 40 minute train ride away, bonus!). Both have their strong assets and quirks. I strongly recommend having a good look at the Glasgow and Edinburgh photo threads and reading through anything else which interests you. Please bare in mind that we can be a cynical bunch some of the time, but I totally understand your fascination with another place, another life. I think we all have an affinity for places far away, it's a human instinct.