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Hello,

I'm a new member of the SSC discussion site and I have read many threads and forums. Some of them are quite good and have intellectual value. I think that this should be the essence of this whole site, having more scholarly and intuitive discussions rather than many of the inane comments I have read of people arguing against trivial and stupid issues with simple-minded reasoning.

I'm starting this new thread because I would like to post a question that I can't find an appropriate thread to insert in now. I was born in China but I grew up and spent most of my life in the USA. During the past 7 years, I made 3 trips to China, 2 were on family vacation and 1 for English teaching as a "detour" after graduating from college. From when I left China in 1991 having experienced the 80's to my first trip back in 2001, I noticed that a lot had changed, especially Beijing. On my subsequent trips in 2003 and 2005, respectively, I noticed that more things appeared and new developments just popped out of nowhere, even though 2 years is not really a long time. For example, the last time I visited Beijing was full of cars rather than bikes. Since returning to the states, I have periodically followed up on news and developments on China, that's how I discovered SSC. Now I think that we all know that so much economic and infrastructural development has occurred in China since the 1978 reforms. But sometimes I find it difficult to imagine China during my parents' generation, when the Cultural Revolution was in full swing and the country was so poor as everyone suffered under Mao's communism. I sometimes wish that that period never existed. Well, before writing too much, I'll pose a question:

From speculation or educated guessing or just personal opinion, what do you think China could have become today if Mao's communists didn't win the civil war and take over the mainland?
 

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Don't take the pre-1978 PRC history too negative. The CR was a political turmoil, but has done little to stop the industrialization of China. When 1950 my grandmother was settled in Shanghai, there was a river in front of her house and over the river were rice paddies. By the time I was born, namely the 1970s, the river had become one of the most important thoroughfare of the metropolis and over the river were shops, factories, huge residential areas, parks and one Workers' Club with theater and cinema. The area I am talking about here is not Pudong. That pre-1978 Pudong was rice paddies is also a myths. The pre-1978 Pudong was a very important industrial park, densely populated by some most important shipbuilders and steel mills of the nation. A large part of the urban population fared daily across the river to work there.
 

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中華民國
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I personally am a strong 國民黨 and 中華民國 supporter, but I personally believe the Communist victory of the Chinese civil war was almost a necessary evil to put China back on the map of a world power.

First of all, I don't believe the Nationalists would've ever won the Chinese civil war. Best case scenario, it would've been a draw and China would've been divided into Pro-Soviet Union Communist North China and Pro-U.S. Nationalist South China, not unlike North and South Koreas. However, just like how the Soviet Union pressured China to let Outter Mongolia become independent, the same probably would've happened to Tibet and Xinjiang as well, with Tibet becoming a pro-U.S. satellite nation and Xinjiang a pro-Soviet Union counterpart.

Bottom line, as horrible as the Culture Revolution was, it was only ONE legacy of Communist rule over China.
 

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I don't know if my post here would interrupt the peace of this thread.

The introduction of our friend curious george here sounds peaceful and discussion worthy enough.

I would have gladly discussed this issue with curious george in a civilized and peaceful manner but not until I encountered some of this posts earlier today which lead me to re-think about this.

So far our seemingly peaceful-minded friend curious George have said the following

"Now I'd LOVE to see someone blow up Shanghai's skyscrapers."

"Because the city and the skyline is a testament to evil and like the Tower of Babel it must be stopped. The earthquake in China was an act of God, so lets hope this will be one too."
(Now that reminds me of Sharon Stone, Falun Gong, and the Westboro Baptist Church)

And although our friend here keeps emphasizing that his posts are not about politics (even about Beijing Subway issue) but he keeps including things such as government, communist party, evil, Mao..... Which brings me to the next questions ; Does he really mean what he said ? Should I even bother answering to such confusing person ?

I know that after I typed this, quite a number of people will accuse me of being a nationalist , a communist or whatever libel they want to rant like some SSC members have done to me.

I am not a fan of the CCP and nor do I ever like Mao, but I know that everything is the past now, there is nothing we can do to alter the course of history, Cultural Revolution already happened, Great Leap Forward already happened, Tiannament incident already happened. What can we do now ? China has embarked on the road of economic and social development and she is still striving to move forward as fast as possible, and China does have many flaws in regards to human rights and other issues. If you really want to help China tackle those issue then why not help her educate the masses first and help change the mindset, go back to China and help China instead of sptting out worms and poison on the Internet ? blowing up buildings, ridicule the dead ones as a God punishment. Of course the dead ones are not your close relative, try to put yourself in those people's situation crying for the death of the loved ones and I go on the Internet and laugh at your dead relatives and say they deserve to die. Ye and that time I'd love to see the expressions on your face.

Thanks.
 

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I know that after I typed this, quite a number of people will accuse me of being a nationalist , a communist or whatever libel they want to rant like some SSC members have done to me.
I will not argue with you,because i am already know this was a troll,I have not read all his/her post,I only see that he/she said he/she born in China stay in US......I want to ask how old is he or she,why he/she ask about mao ,then I found he/she is in the brig,he/she will not answer to me now.
 

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Ill get 6 pack abs
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I know that after I typed this, quite a number of people will accuse me of being a nationalist , a communist or whatever libel they want to rant like some SSC members have done to me.

.
definitely, your not a nationalist or something else, I'm a sort of nationalist, but, IMO, it's no shame. :) notice his user title, he deserved.
 

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Within the past 2 months, We had the following people comming to the Chinese forum talking gibberish.

Hummer50, gl22, and now Curious george.
 

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I'm afraid to tell you there's a bigger picture involved here.

You think about what was the world like before the Cold War. It was controlled by fascist racist Western powers. Then came the Soviet Union and communism. Even though it can be argued they were no different, they were the only alternative in a world monopolized by the West who ruled like a racist dictator. The Soviets tried to start a revolution using this angle to get people living under colonial rule to rise up against their oppressor but weren't too successful carrying their message across to the world. China was being carved up by Western powers. The US sent marines into China to stop the Boxer rebellion against Western colonial rule. The Boxer Rebellion led to the rise of Mao and the communists in China. When the communists took over China, they were what the Soviets were looking for. The Third World can relate to what China went through under colonial rule. That's why some say the Cold War started when the communists took control of China. The Chinese were such in a anti-Western fervor that through the 1950s China would give free aid and support to any country who wanted to fight against the West regardless if they were communists or not.

A world-wide revolution led by communism was a real possibilty now. The West had just finished fighting their colonial cousins in the Axis powers of WWII and were in no shape to send their armies to defend their colonial interests everywhere all over the world. So they had to change game plans. They had to act nice and as if they cared thus the concept of Western human rights was born. So the West started to de-colonize to show "good-faith" to the rest of the world in the face of the communist threat. But of course they couldn't lose control and power so they installed regimes in countries, where the West redrew the borders, that were favorable to the West. And in many cases when the West redrew borders, they lumped ethnicities that hated each other into one country where after decolonizing the West would installed usually a minority ethnicity to rule that was hated by the others so that when trouble brew, the ruling regime would always have to run to the West for help. Which is why you see the majority of conflicts in the world today are rooted directly in the West's redrawing borders all over the world and the dictators they install when they decolonized. And yes, the troubles in Darfur and Tibet that the West blames China for are also rooted in the legacy of Western colonialism.

Even though personally I believe in democracy for China... if China didn't turn communist at that time, most of the world would still be a colony of European imperialists. How many untold tens... maybe hundreds of millions of lives were snuffed out during Western colonialism before WWII? WWIII and a nuclear holocaust would've certainly been around the corner.

So what if China didn't turn communist?
 

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And let's expose this ugly loser troll sooner than later.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/search.php?searchid=1760316

a troll is a troll. being despicable is all it does.

" Posted By curious_george83
Because the city and the skyline is a testament to evil and like the Tower of Babel it must be stopped. The earthquake in China was an act of God, so lets hope this will be one too.
"

" Posted By curious_george83
Now I'd LOVE to see someone blow up Shanghai's skyscrapers. That'd be a million dollar story!! Anyway, No.1 HK, No.2 Singapore, No.3 KL for Petronas towers
"

请斑竹认清垃圾。
 

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starwar
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Hello,

I'm a new member of the SSC discussion site and I have read many threads and forums. Some of them are quite good and have intellectual value. I think that this should be the essence of this whole site, having more scholarly and intuitive discussions rather than many of the inane comments I have read of people arguing against trivial and stupid issues with simple-minded reasoning.

I'm starting this new thread because I would like to post a question that I can't find an appropriate thread to insert in now. I was born in China but I grew up and spent most of my life in the USA. During the past 7 years, I made 3 trips to China, 2 were on family vacation and 1 for English teaching as a "detour" after graduating from college. From when I left China in 1991 having experienced the 80's to my first trip back in 2001, I noticed that a lot had changed, especially Beijing. On my subsequent trips in 2003 and 2005, respectively, I noticed that more things appeared and new developments just popped out of nowhere, even though 2 years is not really a long time. For example, the last time I visited Beijing was full of cars rather than bikes. Since returning to the states, I have periodically followed up on news and developments on China, that's how I discovered SSC. Now I think that we all know that so much economic and infrastructural development has occurred in China since the 1978 reforms. But sometimes I find it difficult to imagine China during my parents' generation, when the Cultural Revolution was in full swing and the country was so poor as everyone suffered under Mao's communism. I sometimes wish that that period never existed. Well, before writing too much, I'll pose a question:

From speculation or educated guessing or just personal opinion, what do you think China could have become today if Mao's communists didn't win the civil war and take over the mainland?
you are a troll seriously( see your posts on "best asia skyline "thread.)
 

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囧!
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The original poster was brigged due to trolling in the SWFC construction thread earlier, for everyone's information.

Anyhow, to answer the question - China would be very similar to today, probably with a similar economic and human development level, moving towards a democracy in the next 20-50 years. China wouldn't be more "ready" for democracy if it had a different government, and had democracy been forced upon the country already, it would plunge into chaos without any question, regardless of who would be in rule of the country.
 

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Shall we revive this thread? Since the "troll" is already gone, maybe we can use this to talk about the real issue, since political comments are not allowed on city development threads.
 

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Does it strike anyone to notice that during the 1950's through the 70's China went backwards in development, thanks to Mao and his crazy, non-productive ideas? If anyone read into some history, China already had some seeds for modernization sown before the Communist take over. The starvation and fuel shortage problems might have been avoided, the out-of -control population increase might have been avoided, and the Cold War could've been easier to overcome. Economy-wise, the country could've reached levels of Japan or South Korea had the Mao-period been avoided, and it would be more stable today. Also, a lot of the culture might have been spared of destruction, WHICH STILL CONTINUES NOW. I don't know whether or not China would've been a democracy, but it would've certainly moved further than where it is now.
 

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Does it strike anyone to notice that during the 1950's through the 70's China went backwards in development, thanks to Mao and his crazy, non-productive ideas? If anyone read into some history, China already had some seeds for modernization sown before the Communist take over. The starvation and fuel shortage problems might have been avoided, the out-of -control population increase might have been avoided, and the Cold War could've been easier to overcome. Economy-wise, the country could've reached levels of Japan or South Korea had the Mao-period been avoided, and it would be more stable today. Also, a lot of the culture might have been spared of destruction, WHICH STILL CONTINUES NOW. I don't know whether or not China would've been a democracy, but it would've certainly moved further than where it is now.
But too late mate, history is history , there is nothing you/I and anyone here can do about it.

What we care about now is China keeps on track and focus on development and move forward, we should not try to wet dream too much about the past.

Communism was the path China has chosen, China cannot blame anyone now.
 
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