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Mortgage crisis guts Cleveland neighborhoods

By Jerry Zremski - NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF


CLEVELAND — Thirteen homes on East 52nd Street have windows made of wood now. Snow drifts high onto 13 doorsteps, many of which haven’t been crossed since thieves ripped out the plumbing to sell for scrap.

East 52nd Street is just one of countless streets in this city’s Slavic Village and other neighborhoods across Cuyahoga County that look like they’ve been hit by a very selective natural disaster.

Three houses in a row will be abandoned and ripped-up, and then four more will be neat and lived-in, and then the pattern will repeat itself again and again on street after street.

All told, local officials estimate there are 10,000 abandoned homes in Cleveland all of a sudden. Chalk it up to a man-made disaster, born of greed, that turned America’s real estate market into a big, bulging bubble. Now the bubble has burst, and the nation is possibly on the edge of a recession as a result. More immediately, the real estate market has collapsed in places like Cleveland and Detroit. Meanwhile, Buffalo has experienced comparatively minimal damage from the subprime mortgage meltdown and the resulting tidal wave of foreclosures.

Nearly 3 percent of metro Cleveland’s homes fell into foreclosure last year, compared with less than half a percent in metro Buffalo. Experts said the speculators that ravaged Cleveland seemed to think there wasn’t enough money to be made in a slow-growth market like Buffalo.

It also helped that Buffalo authorities had the means to go after slumlords. “Houses are so cheap here,” said Common Council President David A. Franczyk, adding that speculators who have broken the law in Buffalo have paid the price for it.

In Cleveland, meanwhile, no one was watching as disaster rolled in.

“I like to compare it to a tsunami coming off Lake Erie and destroying 10,000 homes,” said Frank Ford, senior vice president of Neighborhood Progress, a Cleveland group that fights to revitalize city neighborhoods. “If that happened, every presidential candidate would have been here yesterday, talking about this,” Ford said at a City Council forum on the issue last week.

Boom town mentality

Thursday, the Mortgage Bankers Association reported that home foreclosures nationwide soared to an all-time high in the final three months of 2007. The proportion of all mortgages that slipped into foreclosure set a record, 0.83 percent, from October through December. The previous high, 0.78 percent, came in the July-through-September period.

The foreclosure crisis is the talk of Cleveland and Detroit, which somehow got caught up in the same boom town mentality that led high-rollers in Vegas to bet on housing prices going up so far and so fast that a no-down-payment “subprime” mortgage and its exploding interest rate would be easy to manage.

That mentality never took hold in Buffalo, and to hear people in Cleveland talk, Buffalo should count its blessings.

“The housing market here has just stopped completely,” said Marie Kittredge, executive director of the Slavic Village Neighborhood Development Corp. “It’s just completely frozen.”

And it’s all because subprime loans made Cleveland’s housing market, and many others around the country, artificially hot.

With the city experiencing a renaissance in the 1990s, housing prices here leaped 32 percent between 1993 and 2000. In Buffalo during that same period, housing prices grew a mere 2.5 percent. “We didn’t have nearly the same kind of housing boom that other places did,” said Richard Dietz, economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Buffalo.

That lack discouraged the growth of subprime lending in Buffalo in several ways.

For one thing, about half of all subprime loans go to homeowners who refinance to cash in on the equity in their homes. In Buffalo, homeowners had less equity and less reason to refinance.

Secondly, houses are so cheap in Buffalo that fewer people would need to resort to an exotic mortgage.

And finally, Buffalo’s 1990s real estate slump appears to have left large numbers of real estate speculators looking elsewhere, to where the growth prospects looked better.

In Cleveland, countless speculators thought they could buy a cheap city home, rent it for a few years and then sell it for a big profit. About a third of subprime loans went to such speculators, said Jim Rokakis, the Cuyahoga County treasurer.

Cleveland officials saw this real estate “flipping” phenomenon growing through the 1990s and passed a law to try to prevent potential abuses in 2001. Dayton and Toledo did the same thing — but a year later, the State Legislature overturned those laws.

Rokakis still remembers the dozens of real estate and banking lobbyists who assembled in the State Capitol to defeat the law. “They won, and it was off to the races,” Rokakis said. “There was no sheriff in town.” And as a result, real estate lawlessness turned Cleveland — and to a lesser extent, other Ohio cities — upside down.

Encouraging flipping

Real estate appraisers, who until 2006 didn’t need a license or any training to do business in Ohio, grossly overvalued properties to encourage flipping from one investor to the next.

And subprime lenders, who offered unusual mortgages with low down payments and low initial interest rates that would only explode later, poured into Ohio, where the state consumer protection law didn’t cover real estate sales until last year.

Some lenders didn’t even check their buyers’ credit ratings. And as a result, plenty of people bought a first home or investment properties they wouldn’t be able to afford once those interest rates started rising.

That started happening two years ago, and foreclosures skyrocketed. Cuyahoga County, which typically recorded a couple thousand foreclosures a year, has seen more than 27,000 in the last two years.

In contrast, Buffalo has seen about 3,000 foreclosures in that time.

Many of Cleveland’s foreclosures occurred because of fraud, local real estate experts said. A dizzying array of schemes were hatched to lure unsuspecting investors and unprepared first-time homebuyers, and allow more sophisticated speculators to flip properties.

That didn’t happen to the same extent in Buffalo for one simple reason. “You had an attorney general who was willing to prosecute this stuff, and we didn’t,” Rokakis said.

Now-Gov. Eliot L. Spitzer, while serving as attorney general, aggressively prosecuted — and convicted — Buffalo slumlords such as Robert Palano and Scott Wizig. And that fact has had a lasting psychological effect.

“Speculators are afraid to come to my district because they know someone will come down on them,” said Franczyk, who noted that tough judges and the city’s Anti-Flipping Task Force appear to have discouraged wrongdoing.

Franczyk acknowledged, however, that Buffalo took such a tough stance on predatory lending after seeing its own wave of bad loans and foreclosures in the 1990s. A study by the Federal Reserve Bank found foreclosures in Buffalo quadrupled during that time, with most of them concentrated on the East Side and West Side.

But that wave was a ripple compared with what Cleveland experienced. “In practical terms, it’s hit us like a natural disaster,” said Chris Warren, chief of regional development for the City of Cleveland. “The devastation is manifest: 10,000 abandoned properties in Cleveland and thousands of our citizens uprooted with grievous impacts on their personal wealth and well-being.”

And it’s not just the people who’ve lost their homes who are suffering.

Citywide, the murder rate is at a 13-year high. One of the victims was Joe Krasucki, who, on his 78th birthday last March, thought he heard vandals stripping the aluminum siding off his house, just like they had done to countless abandoned homes in Slavic Village. When Krasucki went outside to investigate, a gang of teenagers beat him so badly that he died several days later.

It all leaves people who’ve worked to revive Slavic Village — a sprawling neighborhood that looks in parts like Broadway-Fillmore and in parts like North Buffalo — feeling angry and scared.

“The vacant and vandalized houses are more than just eyesores; they make the neighborhood unsafe to play in,” said Julie Smith, a local member of ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. “I don’t let my children go out and play in the neighborhood.”

And yet local officials say the worst criminals aren’t the ones roaming the streets of Cleveland.

Rokakis likened the barons of Wall Street to Colombian drug lords. At his State of the City speech last week, Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson compared them to Mafia bosses.

They blame Wall Street for encouraging the growth of subprime lending by packaging the loans into “mortgage-backed securities” that investors flocked to, apparently thinking that the decade’s real estate boom wouldn’t end.

But it ended as soon as the payments on those subprime loans started to move higher, creating a ripple effect that stretches nationwide. Home values have fallen in many communities, and the mortgage-backed securities that investors once loved are now at the root of Wall Street’s doldrums.

“I have no sympathy for Wall Street,” Jackson said. “I have no sympathy for people who live large off the misery and suffering of other people.” As if to prove his point, Jackson has sued 21 investment banks — including Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch and HSBC — saying they created a public nuisance by investing in subprime loans.

Similarly, Buffalo is suing 28 lenders in hopes of getting them to take responsibility for abandoned properties in the city.

In Buffalo, housing prices increased 4 percent last year, while they remained flat in Cleveland.

“We’re a fairly stable market,” said John L. Leonardi, executive vice president of the Buffalo Niagara Association of Realtors.

There’s nothing stable about Cleveland, however. Homes are being abandoned now even in Shaker Heights, long one of the city’s finest suburbs. And homes in Slavic Village can be had on the Internet now for as little as $3,000 — the kind of price that attracts would-be slumlords.

“Our challenge now is to convince people that this is still a great place to live,” said Kittredge, of Slavic Village Development.

That’s not the only challenge. With much of the city now looking hollowed-out, Cleveland not only has to repair its neighborhoods but its psyche.

“It will take years, if not decades, to repair this physical and emotional damage,” said Lindsey Sacker of Empowering and Strengthening Ohio’s People, a group that fights predatory lending.

News Washington Bureau Reporter Lindsey McPherson contributed to this report. .

jzremski@buffnews.com
 
I was expecting to see pictures of this great city. Cleveland is one amazing city. One of my favourites in the country. Much better than other cities in the area like Buffalo and Detroit.

Buffalo seemed very dead and decayed. Detroit very crime ridden and decayed. Cleveland seemed more like Pittsburgh. Moving in the right direction and a great looking and vibrant downtown.

Also, this article seems to bash Cleveland, but yet praises Buffalo. Buffalo was in much worse shape.
 
I was expecting to see pictures of this great city. Cleveland is one amazing city. One of my favourites in the country. Much better than other cities in the area like Buffalo and Detroit.

Buffalo seemed very dead and decayed. Detroit very crime ridden and decayed. Cleveland seemed more like Pittsburgh. Moving in the right direction and a great looking and vibrant downtown.

Also, this article seems to bash Cleveland, but yet praises Buffalo. Buffalo was in much worse shape.
Regardless of your opinions on Cleveland vs. Buffalo... when it comes to the singular issue this article is about... "foreclosures"... Buffalo is indeed in much better shape than Cleveland. While both cities have experienced the usual "Rust Belt" troubles over the years... certain key factors have conspired in Cleveland to make it one of the worst areas for the foreclosure wave that is sweeping much of the country. While economic troubles have contributed to Cleveland's foreclosure problem, the state government has also played a huge role in worsening the problem (which is being felt across Ohio, though most acutely in the Greater Cleveland area). I won't get into it... but Ohio's government basically allowed the state to be overrun by "predatory" lenders who gave out loose credit... or high-interest mortgages... to people with poor credit histories that could ill-afford to "acheive the American dream" of owning a home. A few years down the line after gorging at the trough of "fake wealth", much of the U.S.... and especially Ohio... has been hit with a terrible stomach ache. The foreclosure crisis is playing out in the city of Cleveland by ravaging many neighborhoods, as stated in the article. Slavic Village, a formerly pleasant ethnic enclave full of eastern european grocers and social clubs, has been the hardest hit neighborhood in the U.S., which has resulted in large scale abandonment and looting.

In contrast, Buffalo has one of the lowest foreclosure rates in the nation. There are several reasons speculated in the article about why Buffalo has remained virtually unscathed by this crisis. For one thing, housing in the Buffalo Metro is extraordinarily cheap... possibly the cheapest in the U.S. for a metro over a million. While Cleveland's housing is very cheap compared to the national average... it's still at least 30% more expensive than Buffalo. With such cheap housing, there was probably little need for exotic financing in Buffalo. Also stated in the article, there were government policies in place in Buffalo and New York state that prevented widespread predatory lending. I'm sure Buffalo is jealous of Cleveland's downtown redevelopment, but that's a different issue.

While this topic is a legitimate and fascinating topic for discussion... I do think the thread title is inflammatory. The title of the article... or something like "Cleveland Foreclosure Crisis Discussion" would have been more appropriate.
 
Also, this article seems to bash Cleveland, but yet praises Buffalo. Buffalo was in much worse shape.

No, it's not. Cleveland has all the same problems as Buffalo. All the Lake Erie cities are hurting overall, but are improving their downtowns and some of their historic neighborhoods. That doesn't mean it's all sunshine and rainbows. Many other parts of the cities are still decaying, and suburban sprawl has not stopped, even in the face of a bad economy and regional population stagnation. It's the same story in Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo, Erie, etc., etc. The whole area (the heart of industrial America) has been hurting.

And really, it's the same story in pretty much the whole Midwest. Where has growth been taking place?!- Almost entirely in the far-flung suburbs and suburban hell.
 
^^ I agree about the title. That is why I stated my opinion. It is based on an outsiders view point, as in the title. I am from Australia, and one of my favourite American cities was Cleveland. The housing market maybe hurting in Cleveland, but I know it is a national thing in the U.S., it has made news here in Australia.

I notice you are from Pittsburgh, I know both Cleveland and Pittsburgh tend to be rival cities as I noticed back in last June. Maybe you could be saying some of this based on a personal grudge against Cleveland? I do know that Pittsburgh is also hurting in areas as well. I know it is part of the area Americans call the "Rust Belt" as you stated. But my point being is that I found many progressive neighbourhoods in Cleveland. Little Italy, Warehouse District, The Flats I believe it was called. The city had a great housing stock, beautiful housing with tree lined streets, and I found some great suburbs too.

Cleveland had an active downtown, lots of pedestrian and vehicle traffic. Lots of new street fronts, new downtown living midrises going up. New sport venues, an up and coming lakefront, great parks jutting out into the lake. Lots of great restaurants and clubs. A great theatre district, which I heard was the 2nd largest in the U.S. A fantastic art museum. I national park that was only a few minutes from the downtown.

I spent most of my time in the Midwest. I found Buffalo to be very boring, a lakefront with large buildings, I would venture to say they were old factories, abandoned along the lakefront. A very DEAD central business district, and not a lot of cultural ammenities. I realize Cleveland is in a different class of cities than Buffalo, but the title says it all. "The outsiders view."


Cleveland was a great mix of new and old. People were friendly, and a city that offered a diverse population, and an economy that was getting diversified. What I liked about my trip in the U.S. last June was cities like Cleveland and Chicago. Two cities that had so much to offer, not just in diversity, but in architecture. That is hard to come by here in Australia, unless you are in Sydney or Melbourne.

Cheers!
 
Also, this article seems to bash Cleveland, but yet praises Buffalo. Buffalo was in much worse shape.

No, it's not. Cleveland has all the same problems as Buffalo. All the Lake Erie cities are hurting overall, but are improving their downtowns and some of their historic neighborhoods. That doesn't mean it's all sunshine and rainbows. Many other parts of the cities are still decaying, and suburban sprawl has not stopped, even in the face of a bad economy and regional population stagnation. It's the same story in Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo, Erie, etc., etc. The whole area (the heart of industrial America) has been hurting.

And really, it's the same story in pretty much the whole Midwest. Where has growth been taking place?!- Almost entirely in the far-flung suburbs and suburban hell.
Well thank you for the lesson on American economics. I am stating my opinion on here, I believe that is aloud on this site. I found Cleveland to be a very attractive city. The problems in Detroit and Buffalo were very easily seen. I am not saying that Cleveland and other "rust belt" cities do not have their problems, I am just saying Detroit along with Buffalo were fairly UN-attractive.
 
I notice you are from Pittsburgh, I know both Cleveland and Pittsburgh tend to be rival cities as I noticed back in last June. Maybe you could be saying some of this based on a personal grudge against Cleveland? I do know that Pittsburgh is also hurting in areas as well. I know it is part of the area Americans call the "Rust Belt" as you stated.

Pittsburgh is in the same boat. All the big cities in the area have lost a hell of a lot of population, mostly because they aren't annexing suburbs. Pretty much the only cities in the Midwest and Appalachia (and America in general) that are "growing" are ones that still annex suburbs. The cores of many of these annexing cities are actually in worse shape than Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo, etc.

I found Cleveland to be a very attractive city. The problems in Detroit and Buffalo were very easily seen. I am not saying that Cleveland and other "rust belt" cities do not have their problems, I am just saying Detroit along with Buffalo were fairly UN-attractive.

I find every Lake Erie city very attractive and they all have incredible potential for rebound (if they were in any other nation on earth, they would have never fallen in the first place). The problem is that Cleveland does have all the same problems as Buffalo and Detroit (abandonment, crime, poverty, etc.), and some are arguably worse, like the forclosure crisis.

I wouldn't single Cleveland out as being this bright shining star. I will agree it has a better downtown than Buffalo (not really Detroit though), but there are still a lot of areas in extreme decay. It's just as visible as Detroit or Buffalo. You must not have seen too much of the city. Keep in mind this place has lost half of its population since 1950 (just like Buffalo, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Detroit, etc., etc.), and it certainly shows.
 
Sometimes an outsiders' perspective is more valuable. Too often people want to only see the positives of their community and have a strong psychological need to tune out the negatives.

This guy is not "picking on" Cleveland. He's using a well supported article to discuss the foreclosure crisis and how special interests and a compliant Ohio legislature made it particularly acute in Ohio. In doing so, it would only make sense to use the city hardest hit--not to mention the Ohio city that most Americans are most familiar with--as a focus of his discussion.

Everyone wants to trumpet any article that the NYT or Washington Post puts in their travel section on "36 hours in Cleveland" but heaven forbid they actually do some real reporting on something a little less glossy. Then, they're accused of being outsiders and of doing hatchet jobs.

BTW, I was in Columbus for business in 2004 and ran into a long time "never do well" bartender at an upscale Short North restaurant. I asked him where he was working. He told me that he didn't tend bar anymore and was "selling mortgages." That was my signal moment for knowing that this would not end well.
 
I notice you are from Pittsburgh, I know both Cleveland and Pittsburgh tend to be rival cities as I noticed back in last June. Maybe you could be saying some of this based on a personal grudge against Cleveland? I do know that Pittsburgh is also hurting in areas as well. I know it is part of the area Americans call the "Rust Belt" as you stated.

Pittsburgh is in the same boat. All the big cities in the area have lost a hell of a lot of population, mostly because they aren't annexing suburbs. Pretty much the only cities in the Midwest and Appalachia (and America in general) that are "growing" are ones that still annex suburbs. The cores of many of these annexing cities are actually in worse shape than Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo, etc.

I found Cleveland to be a very attractive city. The problems in Detroit and Buffalo were very easily seen. I am not saying that Cleveland and other "rust belt" cities do not have their problems, I am just saying Detroit along with Buffalo were fairly UN-attractive.

I find every Lake Erie city very attractive and they all have incredible potential for rebound (if they were in any other nation on earth, they would have never fallen in the first place). The problem is that Cleveland does have all the same problems as Buffalo and Detroit (abandonment, crime, poverty, etc.), and some are arguably worse, like the forclosure crisis.

I wouldn't single Cleveland out as being this bright shining star. I will agree it has a better downtown than Buffalo (not really Detroit though), but there are still a lot of areas in extreme decay. It's just as visible as Detroit or Buffalo. You must not have seen too much of the city. Keep in mind this place has lost half of its population since 1950 (just like Buffalo, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Detroit, etc., etc.), and it certainly shows.

Actually I think Cleveland has a much better central buisiness district than Detroit. Although, Detroit had a great collection of art deco buildings, but many were abandoned. That was a shame. Also, I know Cleveland has a very rapidly growing population in its CBD. More people were out and about in Cleveland than Detroit. I was in all of these cities for a couple of days, so it was not like I was in Detroit on Sunday, and Cleveland on a Friday.
 
Where did you go in Detroit? I'm not saying that Downtown is like New York, but to say Downtown Cleveland is livlier than Downtown Detroit is silly. Both downtowns have about the same level of activity. Also, I don't know which buildings you were looking at, but most buildings in Downtown Detroit aren't abandoned. In fact, downtown Detroit has a relatively healthy office market, which happens to have the lowest vacancy rate in the entire Detroit region.

Here is a list of every building over 12 stories downtown:

1. Marriott Renaissance Center - 70 floors
2. Penobscot Building - 47 floors
3. Comerica Tower - 43 floors
4. Guardian Building - 40 floors
5. Cadillac Tower - 40 floors
6. Ren Cen 100 - 39 floors
7. Ren Cen 200 - 39 floors
8. Ren Cen 300 - 39 floors
9. Ren Cen 400 - 39 floors
10. Book Tower - 38 floors
11. Broderick Tower Lofts - 35 floors (Under Renovation)
12. Millender Center Apartments - 33 floors
13. David Stott Building - 32 floors
14. Greektown Casino Hotel - 30 floors
15. Buhl Building - 29 floors
16. Westin Book-Cadillac Hotel - 29 floors (Under Renovation)
17. Riverfront Towers 200 - 29 floors
18. Riverfront Towers 300 - 29 floors
19. One Woodward Ave - 28 floors
20. Trolley Plaza Apartments - 28 floors
21. McNamara Federal Building - 27 floors
22. 211 West Fort St - 27 floors
23. 150 West Jefferson - 26 floors
24. First National Building - 26 floors
25. Riverfront Towers 100 - 26 floors
26. DTE Energy Plaza - 25 floors
27. Sheraton Detroit Riverside Hotel - 25 floors
28. 1001 Woodward - 23 floors
29. Dime Building - 23 floors
30. Penobscot Annex - 23 floors
31. Water Board Building - 23 floors
32. Blue Cross Blue Shield Center - 22 floors
33. Executive Plaza - 22 floors (Vacant/To be demolished and replaced w/ new FBI Building)
34. Fort Shelby Doubletree Guest Suites - 22 floors (Under Renovation)
35. Industrial-Stevens Apartments - 22 floors
36. Ren Cen 500 - 21 floors
37. Ren Cen 600 - 21 floors
38. Washington Blvd Apartments - 21 floors
39. Courtyard by Marriott - 21 floors
40. Cadillac Square Apartments - 21 floors
41. C. A. Young Municipal Center - 20 floors
42. Leland House - 20 floors
43. SBC Building - 19 floors
44. Ford Building - 19 floors
45. David Whitney Building - 19 floors (Vacant/Recent work suggests future renovation, building in good condition)
46. Grand Park Centre - 19 floors
47. Kales Building - 18 floors
48. UA Theatre Building - 18 floors (Vacant/Recent work suggests future renovation, building in fair/poor condition)
49. Park Apartments - 18 floors
50. SBC Annex - 17 floors
51. MGM Grand Detroit Hotel - 17 floors
52. Holiday Inn Express - 17 floors
53. Compuware World Headquarters - 16 floors
54. Fort Washington Plaza - 16 floors
55. Metropolitan Building - 15 floors (Abandoned/no current plans, building in fair/poor condition)
56. Chase Tower - 14 floors
57. Detroit Free Press Building - 14 floors (Vacant/currently unused, building in good condition)
58. Lafayette Building - 14 floors (Abandoned/development rights recently given to Quicken Loans/Rock Financial, building in fair/poor condition)
59. Wurlitzer Building - 14 floors (Abandoned/no current plans, building in fair/poor condition)
60. Baird Detention Facility - 14 floors
61. Fyfe Building - 14 floors
62. The Penboscot Building - 13 floors
63. Michigan Building - 13 floors
64. Park Avenue Hotel - 13 floors
65. Town Apartments - 12 floors
66. Griswold Building - 12 floors
67. Vintont Building - 12 floors (Under Renovation)
68. United Way Building - 12 floors
69. Charlevoix Building - 12 floors (Abandoned/no future plans, building in fair/poor condition)
70. Harvard Square Centre - 12 floors
71. Murphy Hall of Justice - 12 floors
72. Palms Building - 12 floors
73. Park Avenue Building - 12 floors

So of the tallest buildings the only ones that look abandoned and have no current plans for renovation are the Metropolitan Building, the Wurlitzer Building, and the Charlevoix Building, all 15 floors or less.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
While this topic is a legitimate and fascinating topic for discussion... I do think the thread title is inflammatory. The title of the article... or something like "Cleveland Foreclosure Crisis Discussion" would have been more appropriate.
Just to clarify - I did not create the title, it is the actual headline that appeared in the Newspaper.
 
^^ I agree about the title. That is why I stated my opinion. It is based on an outsiders view point, as in the title. I am from Australia, and one of my favourite American cities was Cleveland. The housing market maybe hurting in Cleveland, but I know it is a national thing in the U.S., it has made news here in Australia.

I notice you are from Pittsburgh, I know both Cleveland and Pittsburgh tend to be rival cities as I noticed back in last June. Maybe you could be saying some of this based on a personal grudge against Cleveland? I do know that Pittsburgh is also hurting in areas as well. I know it is part of the area Americans call the "Rust Belt" as you stated. But my point being is that I found many progressive neighbourhoods in Cleveland. Little Italy, Warehouse District, The Flats I believe it was called. The city had a great housing stock, beautiful housing with tree lined streets, and I found some great suburbs too.

Cleveland had an active downtown, lots of pedestrian and vehicle traffic. Lots of new street fronts, new downtown living midrises going up. New sport venues, an up and coming lakefront, great parks jutting out into the lake. Lots of great restaurants and clubs. A great theatre district, which I heard was the 2nd largest in the U.S. A fantastic art museum. I national park that was only a few minutes from the downtown.

I spent most of my time in the Midwest. I found Buffalo to be very boring, a lakefront with large buildings, I would venture to say they were old factories, abandoned along the lakefront. A very DEAD central business district, and not a lot of cultural ammenities. I realize Cleveland is in a different class of cities than Buffalo, but the title says it all. "The outsiders view."


Cleveland was a great mix of new and old. People were friendly, and a city that offered a diverse population, and an economy that was getting diversified. What I liked about my trip in the U.S. last June was cities like Cleveland and Chicago. Two cities that had so much to offer, not just in diversity, but in architecture. That is hard to come by here in Australia, unless you are in Sydney or Melbourne.

Cheers!
None of this has anything to do with the article. There is nothing in my post, which pertained entirely to topic articulated in the article, that stems from any grudge. It is merely the fact of the situation, regardless of your "opinions". Take your personal attacks and insinuations elsewhere.
 
say Downtown Cleveland is livlier than Downtown Detroit is silly. Both downtowns have about the same level of activity. Also, I don't know which buildings you were looking at, but most buildings in Downtown Detroit aren't abandoned. In fact, downtown Detroit has a relatively healthy office market, which happens to have the lowest vacancy rate in the entire Detroit region.
This is incorrect. Downtown Cleveland has almost twice as many daytime workers as Downtown Detroit (approx. 140k vs. 80k). Along with San Jose (a glorified mega-burb), Detroit is one of only two major cities that experiences a "daytime population decrease" (maybe this will tip back after Quicken and others relocate downtown from the suburbs). Additionally, Downtown Cleveland has an office vacancy rate of 21.2% compared to Downtown Detroit's office vacancy rate of 31.1%. Ok, both vacancy rates suck ... but there's certainly a big difference between 21% and 31%. Downtown Detroit's office vacancy rate is by far the worst of any CBD in the country and is the second worst of any submarket in Metro Detroit after Pontiac. In 2001, Downtown Detroit had over 6,000 residesnts compared to Downtown Cleveland's 9,500 residents (I'm sure both have increased somewhat due to the national trend of downtown residential development). Whether one downtown is "better" than the other is subjective... and fraught with knee-jerk boosterism in this community. However, it is clear that Downtown Detroit is not as "active" as Downtown Cleveland, at least when it comes to workers, economic activity and permenant residents.

But this doesn't really have anything to do with Cleveland and Buffalo foreclosures.
 
This is incorrect. Downtown Cleveland has almost twice as many daytime workers as Downtown Detroit (approx. 140k vs. 80k).
How downtowns are delineated varies wildly between cities. What is often described as "Downtown" Detroit is really the 1 sq. mi. financial district. In most other cities "Downtown" includes neighborhoods that certainly wouldn't be described as the "CBD". A "Downtown" Detroit that would be comparable to most other cities stretches about 3 miles along Woodward Ave. from the river to Grand Blvd. The employment base of Greater Downtown is about 130,000 people (which is about the same as Cleveland) and includes major employers such as General Motors, Detroit Medical Center, Wayne State University, Henry Ford Health System, Compuware, EDS, etc.

Along with San Jose (a glorified mega-burb), Detroit is one of only two major cities that experiences a "daytime population decrease" (maybe this will tip back after Quicken and others relocate downtown from the suburbs).
Uh, the actual difference was only a few hundred. When Compuware moved its 4,000 employees downtown they single-handedly shifted the balance. And when you consider three casinos hired several thousand employees each, and several other major companies moved several thousand other employees downtown, I wouldn't doubt that the inflow is at least 10,000+ over the outflow. And that doesn't even include Quicken and the 4,000 employees it is bringing downtown.

Also, you have to look at it in context. Half of Detroit's population lives on the west side which is basically just a large suburb of 450,000 people. Most people who live on the west side actually live much closer to suburban employment centers like Dearborn, Southfield, the Airport, etc. You also have to realize that many people who live in Detroit work in service/retail in the suburbs just across the city limits. If Detroit annexed the land surrounding Eastland Mall and Northland Mall (both are directly across the street from the city) those two areas alone would "add" thousands of jobs to the city.

Additionally, Downtown Cleveland has an office vacancy rate of 21.2% compared to Downtown Detroit's office vacancy rate of 31.1%. Ok, both vacancy rates suck ... but there's certainly a big difference between 21% and 31%. Downtown Detroit's office vacancy rate is by far the worst of any CBD in the country and is the second worst of any submarket in Metro Detroit after Pontiac.
I'm curious as to where your source of data is? Vacancy rates vary between sources and I've seen Detroit's vacancy rate listed in the low 20s, which was actually lower than other places such as Livonia and Southfield. I guess it all depends on whether they are measuring total office space, Class A office space, etc.

In 2001, Downtown Detroit had over 6,000 residesnts compared to Downtown Cleveland's 9,500 residents (I'm sure both have increased somewhat due to the national trend of downtown residential development).
Again it is all about how you determine a "downtown". Greater Downtown Detroit has a population of over 30,000 people in about 3 sq. mi. I have no idea how big "downtown" Cleveland is as defined by that data, but it's not as if either downtown is an island. Just because only 6,000 people live in Detroit's skyscraper-dominated central business district doesn't mean that only 6,000 people have the potential to be there at any given time. Hell, on a game day (Tigers, Red Wings, Lions) you'll have 10x that amount of people downtown.


Whether one downtown is "better" than the other is subjective... and fraught with knee-jerk boosterism in this community. However, it is clear that Downtown Detroit is not as "active" as Downtown Cleveland, at least when it comes to workers, economic activity and permenant residents.
I never claimed one was better than the other. I just said that the level of activity in either central business district is relatively the same. If an event is happening either Downtown is relatively active. If not, then they are dead. If you are in either downtown between 9 and 5 Monday through Friday either Downtown is relatively active. If not, then they are dead.

But this doesn't really have anything to do with Cleveland and Buffalo foreclosures.
I'm only responding to the natural flow of the conversation. Snide remarks aren't warranted...
 
None of this has anything to do with the article. There is nothing in my post, which pertained entirely to topic articulated in the article, that stems from any grudge. It is merely the fact of the situation, regardless of your "opinions". Take your personal attacks and insinuations elsewhere.
Please mate, tell me in the slightest bit, how was that a personal attack?!? You seem very over protective here. What in any sense was that an arguement? If you want to turn this into one, fine. I brought up something that I noticed between the two cities. You could bring up how Brisbane and Perth are competing, but I would not say you are "personally attacking" me. That was a ridiculous comment on your part.
 
BTW, I just did the math...

If you define "Downtown" Cleveland as the area between I-90, Lake Erie, and the Cuyahoga River, in 2000 it had a population of 6,306 in 2.26 sq. mi. for a density of 2,796.4 ppsm.

Image


If you define "Downtown" Detroit as the area bounded by M-10, I-75, I-375, and the Detroit River, in 2000 it had a population of 6,078 in 1.34 sq. mi. for a density of 4,531.0 ppsm.

Image


In the case of Detroit, if you moved the boundary northward to Mack Ave the "defined" boundaries of Downtown Detroit would still be smaller than Cleveland but Detroit's "downtown" population would be nearly double that of Cleveland. In fact, such an area would have a population of 12,054 in 2.03 sq. mi.

Image


So again:

Detroit - 6,078 - 1.34 sq. mi. - 4,531.0 ppsm
Cleveland - 6,306 - 2.26 sq. mi. - 2,796.4 ppsm
Detroit (+Brush Park/Cass Park) - 12,054 - 2.03 sq. mi. - 5,927.4 ppsm

And like you said, that doesn't include the hundreds of new and renovated housing units that have been built since 2000...


I'm not sure what area you used to define the 9,500 people, but it seems that it certainly covers an area much larger than 3 sq. mi.

And while this is probably turning into a vs. thread (I don't know why, as I actually like Cleveland a lot), I just needed to get my point across.

In any case, like I said neither downtown is heads and tails above the other. They are actually very similar in employment, population, and general activity.
 
^I was just about to do what you did Hudkina, but thanks for saving me the time. Do keep in mind though that the population stats are from 2000, and both downtowns have added a lot of people since then. It's all in how you define "downtown." Some cities like Detroit measure just the core square mile, others like Cleveland add much more. A fair comparison is just looking at the core square mile (or two, three, etc. square miles) of each city, regardless of official CBD boundaries.

Downtown Detroit and Downtown Cleveland are comparable in terms of office market. If you take the core three square miles of each city, you have a similar number of total employees. Though I will say that doesn't speak well for Detroit considering it's twice the size of Cleveland, but can only match Cleveland's number of office workers at its core (both being about 150,000 employees in the core three square miles). Detroit's downtown plays a smaller role in its metro office market than Cleveland's downtown in its market. Detroit does have too many suburban office centers, and it has a much larger suburban office market than Cleveland. Detroit has lost more downtown office workers than Cleveland. However, this is changing as corporations are relocating to downtown Detroit. Detroit is redeveloping fast, even in the face of a tough economy.

I never claimed one was better than the other. I just said that the level of activity in either central business district is relatively the same. If an event is happening either Downtown is relatively active. If not, then they are dead. If you are in either downtown between 9 and 5 Monday through Friday either Downtown is relatively active. If not, then they are dead.

I pretty much agree with this. I do think though that Greektown in Detroit sets it apart from Cleveland and other Midwestern cities that aren't Chicago. The general rule of thumb in interior America is that downtowns are most active on weekdays during office hours and on weekends for nightlife. The most dead times are generally weeknights and morning/early afternoon hours on weekends, but you can apply that pretty much everywhere in the Midwest except for a couple of 24/7 party towns.
 
Yes, Detroit's office market is a lot more decentralized than most other cities, but even still Downtown Detroit has the largest concentration of jobs. While suburban markets like Troy, Southfield, Dearborn, Livonia, etc. have more office space, you have to consider the fact that those individual markets cover areas of 20 to 30 sq. mi. Downtown Detroit only covers about 10% of that land area.
 
Obviously a larger city like Detroit has more resources than a smaller city like Buffalo. But in terms of trajectories, all of all these rustbelt cities--including Cleveland, Pittsburgh, & St. Louis, are in the same boat, having lost half or more their peak population. And Pittsburgh & Buffalo have been losing metro population for decades. Thus the large numbers of vacant & abandoned housing & vacant lots/blocks in all of these places. However, a city with a solid brick housing stock like St. Louis stands a better chance of coming back than a wooden city like Buffalo.
 
^you'd be surprised how much brick and higher quality materials are in Buffalo too. There's quite a lot of nice architecture in that city as is the case with all Great Lakes cities.

St. Louis has the advantage of being of the largest cities in the country all the way up until WW2. As a result, its core is larger and more well-developed than the standard non-Great Lakes Midwestern city, but it has still fallen victim to an incredible number of demolitions just like everyone else. St. Louis was the fourth largest city in the country in 1910, behind only New York, Chicago, and Philly. Then Detroit overtook it by 1920 and remained the fourth largest city in the country until WW2. To think how far cities like Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, Buffalo, and Pittsburgh have fallen is mind-boggling. All those cities were incredibly big and dense until the 1960's when the effects of suburbanization started to eat away at the core city in a big way. They all had densities over 12,000 people per square mile in 1950. Even cities like Toledo, Syracuse, Louisville, Minneapolis, etc. had densities over 8,000 people square mile until 1950, which is incredibly dense by today's standards. Most cities in America have lost an incredible amount of their density. Cities like New York, San Francisco, and Boston are pretty much the only exceptions.

St. Louis is actually closer to 1/3 its peak population than 1/2. St. Louis had over 850,000 people in 1950. Cleveland had close to 1 million. Detroit was close to 2 million, not far from Chicago's population today.

http://www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0027/tab18.txt
 
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