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Does the Bloor-Danforth line have too many stops?

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Discussion starter · #23 ·
Sorry I haven't had a chance to reply to this thread. Anyways, here I go :)

TRZ said:
Some problems with some of these;
High Park; there are a lot of high rises on the north side of this station, despite the low ridership figure. The built form does make good sense for a subway station to be in this location.
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I am aware of the high rises that are serviced by this station and bus, but I don't see why they can't have the bus terminate at Keele station instead. It is only a short distance away.

Woodbine; I grew up around the block from this station, the distance between Woodbine and Main Street is the first gap that starts to feel bigger than the average. They generally grow wider and wider as you go eastward from Woodbine. Woodbine is also a key station for accessing the Beaches main area. Main Street to Coxwell, however, is not walking distance.
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I could see keeping Woodbine, cause even my girlfriend benefits from this station (gets her smokes cheap near there ;) ). But I think it could be serviced just as well with bus service along the avenue.

The others have lower figures but are in appropriate areas despite low ridership figures; one also has to take into consideration what will happen to the feeders that currently serve these stations and the impact on the routes if they take longer to reach the subway when rerouted to another station.
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Like I said, using the subway for more express service while having bus service along B-D for local needs would probably be the best solution. Feeders could simply move to the next major stop, as I'm sure it would only take a few extra minutes tops. Even so, it would be more than made up for by faster subway service.

The stations that have low ridership seem disposable on the surface, but when you take large groups of them together, the impact starts to become quite large. The pool you've put together is equivalent to somewhere ~67,500 rides (I'm guestimating, I don't have the chart of figures at work :) ).
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Most of the stops I picked had some of the lowest ridership levels on the line. I'm pretty sure they all had less than 20,000 per day, and they were next to stations that saw significantly higher riderships (http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/subway_ridership07_08.pdf).

However, there is one station that you forgot to propose get the axe; Old Mill.
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Knew I forgot one :bash:

One has to keep in mind also though that one station is only going to add 2 minutes to the trip time. Therefore, you are only shaving off 6 minutes max off anyone's trip into downtown (2min x 3stn, because you have 3 stops on either side of Bay).

There are a lot of complex relationships between these lower-use stations and their impact on the network. The impact may seem small overall, but if there are reverberations, they can cause a downward spiral.
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But don't forget, the train must also deaccelerate and accelerate much more frequently. What this means is that the train is unable to get up to speed, or stay up to speed for as long as it is on the Yonge and Spadina lines. With less stops, it could potentially reach max speed (89km/h) for decent stretches, making the line a much more viable alternative to driving.

The real talk has been about express service. We know that it is not possible to realistically quad-track any of the existing lines; it is not practically feasable and nor is it fiscally prudent either.
Metrolinx has floated the idea of 4-track subways, and I will be intersted in seeing as well as personally getting involved and pushing for a quad-tracked core-portion of Eglinton; Etobicoke and Scarborough don't need the quad-tracked feature though.
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I REALLY like this idea. In fact, while the most expensive, it could be overall the best solution. If there was solid express service, I could see this new service passing other stations as well. I could also see express service working well on the YUS line as well (ie: Wellsley, Rosedale, Summerhill, Davisville, and North York Center could all be passed with Yonge express service). This could make the subway an attractive alternative to choice riders coming from the north even during times with very low traffic.

More importantly though, is that the subways are about reliable high-capacity medium-haul service. They are not designed to be GO-Transit's subterranian twin.

However, the TTC is marketing Eglinton as "The Crosstown"... this means that they want it to be used for longer haul than normal, other routes, and it will have to have an express service in some form.
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In an ideal world, GO would run all day delivering express service to all parts in and around Toronto, while the subway would focus on efficient and attractive grade separated service for the central core. For better or worse, when they extended the subway past Eglinton with stops every 2km or so, it set the stage for subways to be viewed as fast, long distance travel solutions.

Regardless, if we want people to give up their cars en mass, we need to make transit faster than the car. Not faster than the car in a certain corridor. Having to stop a six car train outside of downtown every 700m or so is not going to help convert car junkies into transit riders.
 
#25 ·
OEincorparated said:
Dentrobate you are a weirdo, I'll talk to you later.
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Right, like I was the one who suggested we transform active subway stations into homeless shelters :|:nuts::weird:. Re-read your own posts before declaring others "weirdo".

... what someone who can walk 10 metres?
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All I was getting at is how complainant some people can be over a near-perfectly efficient system. The stops of 509 Spadina are spaced very far apart IMO, every 300-400 metres. It's basically a major/minor division of stops (Queens Quay, Bremmer, Front, King, Adelaide, Queen, Sullivan, Dundas, Nassau, College, Willcocks, Harbord, Sussex, Spadina Station). Tell me which of these stops would you axe to increase speed, shorter trip duration? Between the Front/Spadina condo community, Chinatown and U of T, there's plenty of justification for the minor stops. To fix the 509 I'd try to eliminate the bunching/stalling that occurs at the terminii, rather than veto the very necessary stops en route.

I am aware of the high rises that are serviced by this station and bus, but I don't see why they can't have the bus terminate at Keele station instead. It is only a short distance away.
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I agree that alot of Bloor-Danforth stations are under-trafficked, however you have to remember that BD was built to replace completely the surafce route Bloor-Danforth streetcar. If stops didn't occur every 500-750 metres, of what use would it have been to the local resident/business population? BD was a local service line first and foremost, not so much concerned with how people from deep Scarborough or Etobicoke gets into the city. For longer distances commuters need BRT/LRT or commuter rail. We can't after all these years expect existing stations to be closed-down.

However new lines and extensions can take on a greater "express mode". BD West/East extensions would only comprise a few far-apart spaced stops. An Eglinton Subway Line for instance, would only reflect BD spacing in the central section (I'm guessing: Dufferin-Oakwood-Allen (to the east of Eglinton West Stn)- Bathurst- Chaplin- Avenue/Oriole- Yonge- Mt Pleasant- Bayview). Everywhere outside of that would be kilometre apart spacing. Provided that Eglinton would stretch farther into the suburbs than BD ever can, it'll be able to give commuters an express service to the YUS line which can be taken into the downtown.

Most of the stops I picked had some of the lowest ridership levels on the line. I'm pretty sure they all had less than 20,000 per day, and they were next to stations that saw significantly higher riderships
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I would not add Castle Frank, Chester, Donlands traffic to already overcapaciated stops at Broadview and Pape. The minor stops are there to handle the overflow commuters. Chester sees nearly 7000 walk-ins on a daily basis in spite of its lack of a feeder route. I'd say that's mighty impressive. Not every stop can be a "winner" but are nonetheless integral parts of the NETWORK.

I could also see express service working well on the YUS line as well (ie: Wellsley, Rosedale, Summerhill, Davisville, and North York Center could all be passed with Yonge express service). This could make the subway an attractive alternative to choice riders coming from the north even during times with very low traffic.
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YUS should terminate at Steeles. The YES line could handle Yonge commuter traffic from here on extending north into Richmond Hill, whereby a third track can be installed and utilized to bypass several stops en route to Union. YUS therefore would not be compromised by the influx of 905 travellers as they'd stay on the YES line straight into downtown Toronto (made possible by the third track proposal). It also be possible for transfers with other lines by placing intermediate stops at the major interchange stations: Sheppard, Eglinton, Bloor and Queen. Hence instead of transfering onto the YUS line, some of the commuters from east-west lines will instead board the YES line for an express alternative into the core :eek:kay:!!
 
#27 ·
DENTROBATE54 said:
All I was getting at is how complainant some people can be over a near-perfectly efficient system. The stops of 509 Spadina are spaced very far apart IMO, every 300-400 metres. It's basically a major/minor division of stops (Queens Quay, Bremmer, Front, King, Adelaide, Queen, Sullivan, Dundas, Nassau, College, Willcocks, Harbord, Sussex, Spadina Station). Tell me which of these stops would you axe to increase speed, shorter trip duration? Between the Front/Spadina condo community, Chinatown and U of T, there's plenty of justification for the minor stops. To fix the 509 I'd try to eliminate the bunching/stalling that occurs at the terminii, rather than veto the very necessary stops en route.
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There not that far apart, but even if they were further any gain from stopping less would be completely eliminated because of increased dwell times picking up passengers. Remember, this is not a subway - if there are no passengers waiting, the streetcar just keeps on driving.
 
#28 ·
^^ That's another glorious thing about the 510, it's not all times during the day that we see people requesting to stop/get on at a Sullivan, Sussex or Willcocks. Thus we bypass these stops, increasing speed and reducing duration of trip. I can't believe there's not something more pressing with the TTC to worry about. Has the York U line even begun excavating yet :hammer:?
 
#31 · (Edited)
ScrapeTheSky said:
I agree with those that said GO Transit is the solution here, not subway express lines.
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Hey CC :hi:, how are things over at the BrainTrust... er, Urban Toronto!? Miss me :D?

I agree though that for a lot less expenditure we can easily revamp the Richmond Hill and Barrie South GO lines to offer 10 minute headways, 20 hours a day. With frequency like that there'd be no need for YUS to ever cross the Steeles Avenue threshold. I rather see spending go towards full metros along Eglinton and Queen instead.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Bloor stops are too far apart

(as an aside, Jaye, this should probably be in the transit forum :))

I've decided to revive this thread since this issue is going to come up again in over the course of the next few weeks as the RTP will be being released.

As murmurs increase about the Metrolinx plan and its critical obliviousness to local transit needs, as well as the risk for a serious folly along Eglinton with stop spacing, and the increasing awareness of how critical the local service element is to any sustainable transit solution, I've started to lean from the stance that Bloor has good spacing to the argument that parts of (not in its entirety) Bloor are actually too far apart.

To illustrate, I'm going to include a spacing of how I think Bloor-Danforth should've been.
In some cases, the station name is the same, but physical location is different.
So the idea of this post is, we're back in the late 1950s/early 1960s, during which time the TTC was still financially independant (and could turn down government orders since funding threats meant nothing), and I get to decide where to drop stations. Out of respect for the financial management context, I will break up the line into phases, but will not date the progression of each phase since not enough information is available.

-An aside, as no Sheppard line or SRT existed then, nor was it planned at the time, name overlaps are a non-issue since this is assumed to be mid-1900s.

LEGEND:
Station [street-street span of physical platform + exits]

***

PHASE 1 - Bloor Street East:

-University wye note: Museum station would be a 2-level station, and St. George would be single level, as would Yonge (I skip Bay). Floors at Museum would be segregated by direction, not line, and tail tracks would be present under Avenue Rd. for west- and east-bound trains out of Museum's lower level, with a junction that takes it back to the upper level plus provision for an incoming track originating further north along Avenue Rd. in what would be an alternate alignment of the Spadina subway (arcing west at the CPR, and into Roycroft Park, beyond which it follows the same alignment as today... not that I support that (I'd run it up Bathurst St.)). Museum's station would be a little further south as well as at an angle different today's, and the alignment between Museum and Queen's Park would travel west of the Ontario Parliament Building, not east like it does today-
St. George [St.George St. - Bedford Rd.]
(double crossover located on west side of station, not east like it is today)
-Alignment note: via Sultan St.-
Yonge [Balmuto St. - Roy's Square]
(station along Hayden St.)
-Transfer note: the relationship between Yonge and Bloor stations would be relatively unchanged, just that the stairs to the Yonge platform would be at the south end of the Bloor platform instead of the north like they are today-
Church [Church St. - Jarvis St.]
-Alignment note: via Selby St.-
Ontario [Bleecker St. - Edgedale Rd.]
(station along Howard St.)
-Alignment note: wye for Rosedale Valley Yard in space between Bayview Ave., Rosedale Valley Rd., and Castle Frank Crescent-
Bayview [Bloor St. E.@ Bayview Ave. onramp - Bayview Ave.]
(station built into western portion of Prince Edward Viaduct)
-Transfer note: this "relocated Castle Frank" serves 3 purposes. One is that it allows the same level of access to the subway for the immediate neighbourhood if a station building is built between the Bayview Ave. on- and off-ramp connections to Bloor St. E., but no bus bays at this building, as the buses that service here normally would be originating at Ontario station instead (or streetcar in Parliament St.'s case :D). Two, this location for situating the station allows for a realistic although restrictive access to a GO Train connection and BRT along Bayview, but restrictive in the sense that regular stairs are out of the question (although required anyway for fire code), escalators and elevators are a must and the station would still be very expensive, although quite cool. This should see higher use than Castle Frank does today. Three, is that would allow both the Prince Edward and Rosedale Valley provisions for rapid transit to be used for the Bloor-Danforth line, saving the costs of the additional crossing built for the subway west of Castle Frank)-
Broadview [Don Valley Parkway - Broadview Ave.]
(station built into eastern portion of Prince Edward Viaduct)
-Transfer note: Similar to Bayview station re: CPR corridor, and BRT along DVP-

***

PHASE 2 - Bloor Street West:

Spadina [Dalton Rd. - Spadina Rd.]
-Transfer note: no transfer to the Spadina line from this station
Bathurst [Markham St. - Albany Ave.]
Christie [Christie St. - Manning Ave.]
Shaw [Ossington Ave. - Shaw St.]
Dovercourt [Westmoreland Ave. - Delaware Ave.]
Dufferin [Dufferin St. - Bartlett Ave.]
Brock [Emmerson Ave. - Brock Ave.]
Lansdowne [Rankin Cres. - Wade Ave.]
(bus terminal on west side of Lansdowne Ave. connects station to Lansdowne Ave.)
Perth [CPR - Perth Ave.]
(streetcar terminal on east side of Dundas St. W. connects station to Dundas St. W.)
-Alignment note: wye for Vincent Yards-
Keele [Mountview Ave. - Indian Grove]
High Park[Parkview Gardens - Quebec Ave.]
(bus terminal on west side of High Park Ave. connects station to High Park Ave.)
Glendonwynne [Kennedy Ave. - Kennedy Park Rd. @ Margdon Rd.]
(bus terminal between Kennedy Ave. and Runnymede Ave.)
Windemere [Willard Ave. - Dune St.]
Jane [Old Mill Dr. - Jane St.]
(station between two curves)

***

PHASE 3 - Danforth Avenue:

Playter [Playter Blvd. - Jackman Ave.]
Logan [Plum Pl. - Ferrier Ave.]
Pape [Pape Ave. - Eaton Ave.]
Donlands [Dewhurst Blvd. - Donlands Ave.]
-Alignment note: No Greenwood Yard to be constructed (lands never expropriated) -
Greenwood [west from Ladysmith Ave.]
Monarch Park [Gillard Ave. - Parkmount Rd.]
Coxwell [Coxwell Ave. - Woodington Ave.]
Woodbine [Woodmount Ave. - Woodbine Ave.]
Oak Park [Oak Park Ave. - Westlake Ave.]
-Alignment note: Arcs south about 30 degrees between what would be Harris Ave. and Main St., and Danforth Ave. and Guest St. -
Dawes [Guest St. - Trent Ave.]
(angled roughly from mid-point of Guest St.'s north-south half and the end of Trent Ave.)
-Transfer note: convenient connection to GO Danforth provided by this alignment -
-Alignment note: wye for yard south of CN Kingston subdivision and east of Victoria Park Ave. -
Victoria Park [midpoint between CN Kingston subdivision and Wakehood St. on Victoria Park Ave. - Sneath Ave. @ Danforth Ave.]

***

PHASE 4 - Etobicoke:

Kingsway [Kingscourt Dr. - The Kingsway]
Prince Edward [Grenview Blvd. N. - Prince Edward Dr. N.]
Montgomery [bend in Birchview Blvd. @ Montgomery Rd. - midpoint between Brentwood Rd. N. and Royal York Rd. on Birchview Blvd.]
(bus terminal on west side of Royal York Rd. connects station to Royal York Rd.)
Islington [CPR Galt subdivision - Islington Ave.]
-Transfer note: GO Train connection at this station -
- Alignment note: Alignment remains along Bloor St. W. -
Dunbloor [Dunbloor Rd. - Micheal Power Pl.]
- Alignment note: Yard beneath Six Points -
Kipling [Botfield Ave. - Prennan Ave.]
(bus terminal on northwest corner of Kipling Ave. and Bloor St. W. connects station to Kipling Ave.)
Martin Grove [east from Shaver Ave.]
(bus terminal on west side of Martin Grove Rd. connects station to Martin Grove Rd.)
East Mall [east from The East Mall]
Renforth [Renforth Dr. - Peacock Ave.]
Markland Wood [Mill Rd. - Forestview Rd.]

***

PHASE 5 - Danforth Road/Scarborough:

Pharmacy [Newport Ave. - Teesdale Pl.]
- Alignment note: curves through Byng Park and Warden Woods -
Warden [midpoint between corner of Patterson Ave./Leyton Ave. and the bend in Cataraqui Crescent - 100m north of Mack Ave. on Warden Ave.]
- Alignment note: curves onto Danforth Rd. -
Birchmount [Birchmount Rd. - Hibberts Dr.]
Kennedy [Danforth Rd. @ Kilmamock Ave. - Kennedy Rd. @ Raleigh Ave.]
- Alignment note: leaves Danforth Rd. and runs parallel to CN Kingston subdivision's south flank -
Midland [Scarborough GO Station]
- Transfer note: Stouffville Line service in addition to Lakeshore East Line -
- Alignment note: breifly under Midland before returning to Danforth Rd. -
Huntington [Wolfe Ave. - Winter Ave.]
Brimley [Century Dr. - Horton Blvd.]
(station building and bus terminal connects to Brimley station to Eglinton Ave. E.)
Trudelle [north from Wetherby Dr.]
Thicketwood [Thicketwood Dr. - Carslake Cres.]
Lawrence East[Hollyhedge Dr. - Lawrence Ave. E.]
Brimorton [centered on Brimorton Dr.@McCowan Rd.]
Ellesmere [south from 50m south of Ellesmere Rd.]
- Alignment note: begins curve into Scarborough Town Centre complex 50m south of Ellesmere Rd. -
Scarborough Centre [midpoint of north-south half of Town Centre Ct. - midpoint of Triton Rd.]

I think that, if the investments were smart, that a secondary east-west line, mostly surface, could have been constructed along a Dundas-St.Clair alignment (breifly via O'Connor where St.Clair doesn't exist) with both having lower capacity (since they support one-another) to make infrastructure costs less, not excluding a LRT approach (in such a scenario, the University wye relationship becomes obsolete). Both would have had potential to extend into Mississauga. Add to that a surface exclusive ROW LRT along Lakeshore Blvd. in Etobicoke, Queensway/King St./Eastern Ave. in Toronto, and Kingston Rd. through Scarborough, and Transit could be a lot more attractive just by being closer to their market.
 
#33 ·
TRZ said:
(as an aside, Jaye, this should probably be in the transit forum :))

I've decided to revive this thread since this issue is going to come up again in over the course of the next few weeks as the RTP will be being released.
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pretty interesting material and ideas. Would love to see a map describing what you are describing. Im not 100% of the details of the layout around museum, but I think I can get what you are describing.

Cheers, m
 
#34 ·
I can see why some people might think it would be better without stations like chester (my local station). But in reality theres no way that any BD stations are going to get axed, people would riot.

I think shutting down stations is counter intuitive and a distraction from building new tracks for actual express service.
 
#35 ·
mariokarter said:
I can see why some people might think it would be better without stations like chester (my local station). But in reality theres no way that any BD stations are going to get axed, people would riot.

I think shutting down stations is counter intuitive and a distraction from building new tracks for actual express service.
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One day I visited your neck of the woods, and walked along the Danforth from Broadview to Donlands. The whole time, as I passed one station to the next, I thought: "Wow, how convenient it must be for the locals to live closeby to so many rapid transit options for a quick zip into the downtown?!!" Then I was off on my three+ hour journey back to Brampton. :(

BD's perfect as is. The only things I'd change is add a stop to either end of the line, @Prince Edward (a stop here for Kingsway Vlg proper was the original intent of the TTC with RY Stn. shifted slightly over to Montgomery) and @Birchmount. Extensions beyond existing parameters to Sherway and Malvern, would be nice as well. :cheers:

A Bloor Express Line is highly unnecessary as an one-day trek from Kipling to Kennedy is only 55 mins. For 32kms, that's not bad. If someone needs faster service than that they can advocate for improved GO Transit services within the 416 (Milton Line + Lakeshore East Line forms an adjacent parallel to the BD line which could be served by local commuter rail [S-Bahn/U-Bahn] as well). :yes:
 
#36 ·
DENTROBATE54 said:
One day I visited your neck of the woods, and walked along the Danforth from Broadview to Donlands. The whole time, as I passed one station to the next, I thought: "Wow, how convenient it must be for the locals to live closeby to so many rapid transit options for a quick zip into the downtown?!!" Then I was off on my three+ hour journey back to Brampton. :(

BD's perfect as is.
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Haha I agree, but I can for sure see why some people might think it "too perfect" relative to the overall atrocious transit in the GTA.
 
#38 ·
RandomnesstwO said:
Well wouldnt it be nice to have a few more stations in Etobicoke?
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A few? Most definitely. Shorncliffe/Honeydale, [North Queen] and Sherway Gardens seem to be the natural progression of stop locations westbound for the Bloor-Danforth Line and could largely be built on the cheap (i.e. at-grade/elevated, open-air stations and ROW). :cheers:
 
#39 ·
DENTROBATE54 said:
A few? Most definitely. Shorncliffe/Honeydale, [North Queen] and Sherway Gardens seem to be the natural progression of stop locations westbound for the Bloor-Danforth Line and could largely be built on the cheap (i.e. at-grade/elevated, open-air stations and ROW). :cheers:
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No, it can't. The TTC reviewed the East Mall extension a few years back, and it was to be all underground.
You have to remember that sticking to the rail corridor does make for lousy stop locations. Kipling GO would have been superiror if it were located at by the Bloor overpass just west of Islington, connecting to the subway and MT there. But GO wanted parking at the time. The same applies for Etobicoke North. A Rexdale GO by Islington would have been a smarter location for a GO Train to stop, but GO wanted parking at the time.

And Sherway Gardens is a total non-starter. The subway must stick to Dundas if it is to be attractive as a corridor. You need a very good reason to squiggle like that. Good reasons exist for the DRL. Sherway Gardens however, is not a good reason, it's a joke.
 
#40 ·
There are a lot of complex relationships between these lower-use stations and their impact on the network. The impact may seem small overall, but if there are reverberations, they can cause a downward spiral.
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This is really the key statement of the whole discussion. It's a system...and a very complicated one. The average person is no more qualified to discuss closing subway stations, than they are on how to conduct a brain operation.


I am aware of the high rises that are serviced by this station and bus, but I don't see why they can't have the bus terminate at Keele station instead. It is only a short distance away.
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As the crow flies maybe. That highrise cluster at High Park station is very high density. The station entrances are well situated to service that cluster. That's why High Park has a high "walk-in" number. If you had to get there from Keele Station, it would require walking all the way around to get home, not to mention up a hill.

If anything, you would instead close Keele, and move it's bus routes to High Park. Who the hell walks into/out of Keele Station? Hardly anybody....not much shopping and low desnity residential (there is a school nearby though).

Hell...same goes for Dundas West...it's busy because it's a heavily used bus/streetcar terminus.

There's no need to close any B/D stations at all. The beauty of having already built stations close together makes for better intensification, which most of B/D is prime for. With stations close3 enough, it allows a more even distribution of densification along the entire street, as opposed to the "nodal" bumps on farther spaced stations (not that there's anything terrible about that, it's just not ideal).



KGB
 
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